Why is the GOP rallying around Trump?

But he really doesn't. Not even close. And, that is the saddest part of the ignorance behind the Trump zealots.

I know that you are a S Florida person. I was born and raised their. Trump's grifting and shady business deals were have been known about since the 80's. How anyone falls for his BS is just mind boggling.

 

Because we are having a discussion. None of our posts are going to change the world.

I understand your differentiation of the issues above. I just wish people like yourself could contemplate there is another side to this, and you are choosing to frame the issue a certain way, based upon your beliefs, then wanting to impose that on everybody. There are people who strongly believe homosexuality is wrong and feel the correct response is to throw them off buildings. I’m sure they are sincere in their beliefs, and they think the imposition of their l beliefs are more important than the other persons right to live their life the way they feel appropriate.

 

Framing abortion as a matter of religious belief and calling a fetus a human being misses the point. A non viable fetus is not a human being, and, more importantly, imposing anti-abortion on women is often cruel. Some say, well, we can make exceptions, to which I ask, to your beliefs? And if you're willing to make exceptions to your beliefs, aren't we just arguing over what they should be? I and most everyone favors until the fetus is viable. Then, and only then, is it a human being IMHO.

 

No, I’m not.

Trump ran on “Lock her up” and won. Now he’s running on “Lock them up” and them means just whoever. And he is thiiiiiis close to winning again.

It’s 100% a valid path.

 

I generally agree. Pro life view embryos and fetuses as human lives, and to a literal extent they are, of human dna and biologically alive. As such they view the fetus as having a right to protection of life and future life.

It is not an illogical concept, at clearly at some point in fetal development, most people agree with that.

It is important to recognize the validity and plausibility of that construct.

However, a different construct, one that you and I agree with, is that while an early embryo/fetus it is biologically alive and of human origin, it is in no way alive as we tend to view a human life. It has no cognition. No perception. It has no awareness. No memory. No feeling. No pain. For much of the period it doesn’t even have a functionally beating heart, although a beating heart to me is somewhat irrelevant.

So what does it mean when you terminate an embryo/fetus at this stage? You haven’t ended any life from a cognitive standpoint. There is no suffering. You likely have prevented an inevitable future life, but that is something different.

At the same time you are forcing a mother to carry it to term, against her will, which is a very real hugely intrusive imposition and dimishment of rights and bodily control.

I just wish those pro lifers would at least acknowledge the plausibity and the logic of that construct, and while not their preferred belief construct, reflect that there are different logical constructs and consider before imposing their belief construct on everyone else.

 

Yet you ignore the difference between the gay situation and abortion.

Pro lifers are in essence trying to keep babies from being thrown off buildings.

And just to be clear once again... I understand your personal reasons for your position. I respect them and would consider them an exception I would support.

 

Yes! Thats been my point all along. When people call me a "forced birther" for wanting abortion bans but with exceptions, I remind them that we all are "forced birthers" with different timelines.

 

I sometimes think things would be easier if we looked at ourselves as Homo sapiens and just another species, except one which has sex regularly and not just for the purpose of producing offspring. Unfortunately, these folks with these beliefs have made "having sex" a potentially dangerous activity, especially for the mother.

 

I know. I believe you once said 12-15 weeks would be reasonable.

 

Gotcha. I understood "valid" differently.

 

Throwing babies off buildings. Yeah, it’s exactly like that… “in essence”.

 

I'm fine with pretty overarching bans, but not ever at the expense of a mothers life or the further harm of assault victims. I also find the unviable (no brain/brain activity, Non functioning vital organs etc) to be a more nuanced area. We unplug non viable humans all the time.

 

That wasn't my analogy. I just built on it.
None of us (normal people) want to throw gay people off of buildings either.

The ultimate outcome is most certainly the same for the baby though.

 

I acknowledged the difference. I understand you think you are saving babies. But what I ask you to at least consider, is they aren’t really “babies” as we emotionally envision them, but something else, and also to consider the huge burden you are mandating on women in order to mollify your distress in viewing non viable, non feeling and non aware embryo as a baby - and using that as a means to force unwanted actions on women.

I’m not trying to change your mind on your beliefs about abortion. Just trying to get to consider are you so confident in these beliefs that women need to suffer the consequences? The fact that you have sympathy for our situation, which I appreciate, leads me to think you aren’t so confident.

 

Actually, I have said that punitive action should go towards the doctor, not scared women... At least up until a certain age.

But as often happens we have digressed. Appreciate your input as always.

 

I view being forced to bring an embryo / fetus to term you don’t want a punitive action.

I’ve always viewed the give the mother a pass on illegal abortion somewhat hypocritical and politically expedient. If one really thought it was murder, or akin to murder, I’m not sure why the mom skates.

The answer I think is ultimately even pro lifers don’t really view an early fetus as a baby, and they don’t really view it as murder.

 

I have always said depending on the age, I dont consider it "murder". Murder (as we often define it) is the intentional termination of a human being. Sacred 16 year olds dont really think they are killing a human being because our society has lied to them.

I hold the doctors who get rich off of working in abortion mills to a much higher standard.

An OB that is faced with a serious life decision for a mon is one thing. A doctor who is churning out abortions (which does happen) is another.

 

This says the average abortion doctor makes just over $100k. I saw the other day the average doctor makes about $350k

https://www.comparably.com/salaries/salaries-for-abortion-doctor

 

There should not be "abortion doctors" imo. There should be an OB who in the case of something critical can perform them.

When your livelihood depends on abortion you likely wont have any desire to reduce them.

 

Punitive action towards doctors becomes punitive action towards scared women by threatening away providers for safe procedures.