Can't agree with this. BillyD didn't average a four seed in his first five years. His first two teams made the "Nah" tournament . . . . they didn't make nah tournament. Then he had 6, 5, 3 seeds in 98-00. Using those three years alone we didn't even average a four seed. And no, this is not a comparison of BillyD to MikeW: It's a comparison of seeds earned by Billy's teams with your criterion. If you want to suggest that the current trajectory is not good enough, I'm on board with ya, but I don't buy the 4seed criterion at this stage in CMW's tenure.
The cupboard was bare when Billy took over. He had a couple of walk-ons starting in those first 2 years. The cupboard was full when Mike White took over. Just saying.
Unlikely that a team from a major conference get a 13-15 seed. It probably happens, but not often. We are looking at an 11seed at worst.
Don't be silly. That was a GREAT year. We'd have been in the Final Four if Egbunu hadn't been targeted by Auburn.
Things are cyclical. And any given rule change can dramatically change the landscape. If the 3-point line, for example, moves out to the NBA line, expect a return to Big-Man Post-Play domination.
Ok, but they didn't make the tourney at all. And in the next three they didn't average a 4seed. One of Billy's best teams was a five seed. I'm just trying to illustrate the point that averaging a 4seed may be an unrealistic expectation for the first five years as a FL basketball coach.
Billy had the program on an upward trajectory. The standard was lower when Billy started, the program was not mature. White took over a ready made program. He didn’t have to build anything.
That makes sense. 6, 5, 3, 5 and 2 were the seeds for 1999-2004. I would be constantly drooling if we could do that now.
What do you feel should have been the average seed for Gator basketball (with one of the best young coaches) from 96-00?
Stop being obtuse. You are not being genuinely curious, you are trying to obfuscate. The people who pay for tickets, paraphernalia, concessions, donate, and ultimately pay for the coaches salary, want a better product. This is evidenced in a multitude of ways. I hate to potentially lose out on the reward for sticking with a young coach who represents the university well, but it’s time for a change on both sides for the better.
I am not being obtuse. I am interested in hearing who “deserves” better ….and why. I am not sure why you presume the “who” portion is rhetorical, or that my questioning isn’t genuine. Tampa provided an answer different than yours, and he too wasn’t sure what you intended. (Post 121) The reason I ask the question is because I do not think there is an aspect of the program that “deserves” better, or would suggest we should have “better”. Sure, there are individual fans who certainly are worthy, but when viewing the program on a macro level…. I think it consistently “overachieves”. As one of those worthy fans…. I find this a frustrating reality. And I have always loudly professed the program needs to do more, if it wants more. And that means from the top down…. from Scott Stricklin to Joe Fan. We may face a coaching change, but if that is the only change…. nothing will change. Florida was incredibly fortunate to find Billy Donovan, but the greater miracle was retaining him as long we did. And there were a lot of factors that aided the cause. Such scenario will not repeat, even with a lesser coach. If Florida is to acquire and retain a really good coach- it will require equal commitment at all levels. There is a reason Florida isn’t plucking a strong Power6 coach. Florida is not a destination job. And the reasons for that are alluded to above. And that’s ok, so long as expectations for the employee are in line with that of the position and resources provided. Make no mistake, I am ALL IN for lofty goals related to Florida basketball. I spend a ton of money, time and energy in my support. But that effort doesn’t begin and end with the coach. Not be a long shot. And the “we deserve” mantra gives a message of “we’ve done our part”. Nope.
Given with what he started with it’s more about the upward trajectory rather than maintain. So first 4 years the main thing is to get better. It was pretty clear the program was getting better under Billy
While I understand your premise - in order to get more we need to invest more (see football) - 108's attempt to answer your question is on-target. We vote with our wallets, plain and simple. Is our voting "elite-caliber"? absolutely not. But what is being said is, "we are not getting what we believe we are paying for" and that means the levels of investment are just as threatened (and likely more so) to be reduced under the status quo as it is to create an "a ha" moment in our collective minds. Right now, I would say we are attempting to be Bama (football centric, basketball desirous) and it appears as if they finally have a quality coach who fits their goals. Now if it is plainly obvious that we are still well short of their investments in basketball then I do believe the powers-that-be understand the shortfall (just like the new realities in football). From a fan standpoint, I think THE biggest hindrance is that we don't have a good enough system of ticket distribution to allow those rich folk who are buying the season tickets but not attending them consistently to get them redistributed to those who want to attend. And if that means the monies received is lower than par then it is better than getting nothing at all. Something has to arouse the fan base. If you are trying to "enlighten" us as to how far we have to go then go have at it. I am afraid what you are wanting, besides doing what Bama has done to finally get their coach, is quite a ways in the future. As frustrating is it is likely to be moving forward.
I understand, and agree to an extent. But the idea fans are not “getting what they pay for” when buying a ticket to a gators basketball game raises a couple questions: Should fans pay more or less based upon season success? I thought one of the worst decisions the UAA made was raising prices in the wake of the title teams. Are Florida fans paying more than Georgia fans? Or less than those of Alabama? Should they be? i think fans purchase tickets in support of the program and with an interest for the game/sport. Certainly, that interest …. at least with a portion of the fan base …. will ebb and flow with success. But should prices do the same? I guess what I am saying is…. I don’t think fans should “expect” more or less based on ticket price. Nor do I think ticket price should be based upon those expectations. I certainly share your thoughts and frustrations regarding ticket redistribution. And though I agree that fans “pay with their wallets” . . . their attendance also has value. Your redistribution idea suggests you agree. Our fans have a poor track record as it relates to “attending”, whether that be home games or road/neutral/tourney venues. And though such events really do not impact UAA finances, tepid fan support is more than just poor optics. It speaks to a general lack of enthusiasm or interest…. something undoubtedly considered when the UAA is making its decisions relating to budget allocations. Basketball is not overly important at Florida…. not to most of it’s fans, and by extension, not to the UAA. And so, whenever/wherever something/anything isn’t a priority- rarely will you see it become a resounding success. Florida witnessed such rarity, but it will be very unlikely to replicate …. unless priorities change. I am not trying to push that change on the fans. After all, folks like what they like. But I have tried to do so within our UAA…. imploring a greater commitment/investment, in the hopes resulting success could allow for an excited fan base that could cultivated, sustained and built. But even that has not happened in the wake in true, championship level success. And so I think the uaa sees a point of diminishing returns with basketball simply due to an overall tepid interest in the sport. That is frustrating as a “basketball first” type fan- but understandable. This is a business, and the basketball fan base has never really shown itself to have a real high market cap. My push back on the “we deserve” mantra isn’t meant to excoriate fans. I’m making the case that this goes beyond just the coach. As for Bama…. it’s program and Nate’s resume looks quite similar to that Florida/White after year 3. If Nate’s trajectory shoots higher, Bama will need to work to retain him as coach. If he flattens out, the Tide will have a “decent coach” who takes em to the tourney. And some fans will deserve more.
Did you honestly expect an "upward trajectory" after Billy left? There's a reason why the court is named after him, he was exceptional. To expect better after he left is wishful thinking
Exactly...and to all our fans that complain about White and our program: What we need to do is realistically take a look at who runs a clean program, and who doesn't. Do you think Alabama runs a clean program? UK, Auburn, LSU? SEC recruiting has been stellar the last 10-15 years - but where has UF been in that span? We all know how recruiting works, and with changes to a player's ability to benefit financially now it's become even more pronounced. You NEED to recruit top players to compete. But how can we do this when we run a clean program while the top teams in our league don't? This is why we've relied so heavily on the transfer market. White, this past year, but all out on what he thought was a creative way to target good players with proven track records, albeit some at mid-major level programs. It hasn't worked out the way he wanted, but let's not kid ourselves as to why he has to employ this type of strategy to begin with. We all know how vocal Billy was in his frustration, trying to recruit clean when so few others were, losing all kinds of players last minute who took a deal to go elsewhere. Is there any reason to believe that White isn't dealing with the same issues? Or worse? If anything the landscape is more challenging now. There's no way Billy and the powers at UF were going to sign off on someone who runs a dirty program tarnish Billy' legacy, on his court - so they found someone who was an up and comer and who runs a clean program. Do you disagree? Show me one example of someone who was a surefire NBA prospect who has come here during White's tenure (Scottie Lewis is still in the G League for a reason) So...if we're going to point fingers, let's start with the state of the NCAA and all the dirty programs in the top 25. Virtually all of them. And the NCAA, the fans, CBS etc all turn a blind eye to it and openly praise all these dirty programs, when the bottom line is - THEY'RE CHEATING. It's just become so systemic and so acceptable that few mention it anymore, but it certainly leaves us at a major disadvantage. Why can't we recruit 6'9 wings that can shoot or athletic 6'4 guards? Because someone is paying them to play elsewhere!!! It's that simple. So the next time you complain about White's inability to recruit or compete for championships, take a step back and look at the state of college basketball.
I think if a new coach was brought in, they would hopefully be the type of person who would demand a bigger commitment from the administration for basketball. I know basketball isn't football, but I never thought that a coach could get the administration to make the kind of changes that Napier has in football. Regardless of how you feel about Coach White, he wasn't the current administration's hire and its human nature to invest more into something when he's your guy. I'm hopeful SS now sees that the right coach isn't all about x and o's (that's very important), but also about the overall commitment from everyone involved. Perhaps a new coach is the jolt that UF basketball needs to get it moving in the right direction. Whether that be an experienced coach or an up and comer from a lower D1 division, everyone in the decision needs to be all in and frankly with the money UF is getting, there really is no longer an excuse. 7 years in and not SS's hire, it's hard to imagine we'll see those changes, but I'm also not an insider so perhaps its already happening behind the scenes.
I am honestly curious as to what “a larger commitment” from our admin looks like and would accomplish. Our facilities are top 20, we pay market, we have all our games on TV, when you are only recruiting a handful of kids a year the recruiting budget shouldn’t be an issue…what is it that we think we should be doing but are not? College basketball is all about finding and retaining the right coach, it’s honestly not much more complicated than that in my eyes. Butler with BS, Baylor with BD, UVA with TB, UT with Barnes, Few and Gonzaga, Wisconsin with BR, TT with CB (until his alma mater called) even MSU with TI etc etc, none of those schools were more “committed” to basketball than us when they hired those guys. They found the right guy and kept them happy. Just like we did with Billy - he wanted a new 10 million dollar practice facility, he got one. He wanted market salary he got it, among other things. While we likely won’t find another BD, we can find a consistently top 15-20 coach. That isn’t an unreasonable ask given what we have to offer.
This is a really good post. Perhaps simply just getting the right coach and to start winning is all we need and i tend to agree with that. Maybe after that it's as simple as committing to getting more fans to games, such as having a way for alumni who buy season tickets and know they won't be attending games to put up their tickets in some sort of sharing program where fans can go for free or a very small fee, allowing student to camp out for big games to build more excitement, perhaps offering free busing for students who want to attend the SECt and of course turning around the cameras. In all honesty I really have no idea what the current situation is really like other than what people post on this board. I graduated over 20 years ago and live outside of Philly and really only go to games when they play in Newark or NYC, but I love Gator basketball and never miss a game that's on TV (even if I have to turn my phone off for hours, not look at the internet so that I can watch on DVR without knowing the result). Still to this day, my wife doesn't get it as she'll say didn't they already play...lol). At the very least she knows not to tell me what happened, but she's really more concerned on what the Housewives did in what must be about the 20th different city, so her not caring about sports allows me to do this.
Actually, Lopez won a NC before he got to UF at Pepperdine and after he left UF at Arizona, just none at UF. . Being a west coast guy, his recruiting never really endeared him to a lot of Gators.
