Welcome home, fellow Gator.

The Gator Nation's oldest and most active insider community
Join today!

We all pay the price for protectionism

Discussion in 'Too Hot for Swamp Gas' started by docspor, Aug 13, 2024.

  1. docspor

    docspor GC Hall of Fame

    5,421
    1,744
    3,078
    Nov 30, 2010
    Damn, Phil must be old. I was friends with his son....I attended PG's prez announcement back in the mid 90s. Good article. It is disturbing to see both parties embrace protectionism. JOBS JOBS JOBS!!!


    https://www.wsj.com/opinion/we-all-...ctionism-f0e5e771?mod=commentary_article_pos1


    Since Adam Smith debunked mercantilism in “The Wealth of Nations” (1776), the political appeal of trade protectionism has centered on its ability to benefit a privileged few special interests while spreading costs across society. Yet as the global economy has become more integrated, the cost of granting special favors through such policies has exploded. Each job created by recent tariffs on washing machines and steel has cost the U.S. economy an estimated $820,000 and $900,000, respectively. Tariffs imposed in the name of revitalizing American manufacturing have, over six years, been followed by slightly decreased manufacturing output, reductions in the percentage of the nonfarm labor force employed in manufacturing, and significantly higher trade deficits.

    Sidestepping the economic logic and evidence that trade and private markets fuel growth and higher living standards, protectionists and industrial planners are trying to change the terms of the debate. Disciples on the right and left argue for policies that promote not efficiency, consumer benefit and economic growth, but rather jobs as ends in themselves. American Compass’s Oren Cass expresses this new mantra when he states that economic policy should emphasize “a healthy labor market rather than merely rising consumption.” Former U.S. Trade Representative Robert Lighthizer adds that “Americans are producers first and consumers second.”

    On the surface, their argument is appealing. Jobs are at least as important as consumption. But this raises an age-old question: Who decides which jobs to promote? In attempting to answer, it becomes clear that the new mantra is the same old siren song.

    Politicians who advocate focusing on jobs propose that we allow government to direct how labor is employed, how capital is invested, and which goods and services are made available to consumers. That concept isn’t exactly novel: Allowing the “best and brightest” to choose such arrangements has been tried and rejected for eons. The idea of letting those who earn their incomes by the sweat of their brows decide how to spend their own money is relatively new and revolutionary.
     
    • Like Like x 2
    • Informative Informative x 1
  2. wgbgator

    wgbgator Premium Member

    29,360
    1,793
    1,968
    Apr 19, 2007
    Perhaps if the state, economists or someone else could convince people that working at a day care, sandwich shop or bar is the same as working in a steel factory, you'd be in business. Until then I suspect the allure of protecting jobs that are "important" in the national psyche will remain strong. But I also suspect the bosses dont want people to get ideas that slinging a burrito is like working a car assembly line, workers might get ideas about unionizing and stuff. Better to keep up the fiction those are jobs for pimple faced teens on summer break, not people seeking stable long-term employment.
     
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2024
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Winner Winner x 1
  3. l_boy

    l_boy 5500

    12,676
    1,696
    3,068
    Jan 6, 2009
    Do you not see a case as with China having an independent tariff protected supply chain other than your enemy may make sense for issues of national security?
     
    • Like Like x 1
  4. wgbgator

    wgbgator Premium Member

    29,360
    1,793
    1,968
    Apr 19, 2007
    Here's the other problem doc, if we want to keep our empire, we gotta have "enemies" and think about "security" to keep our defense jobs program going
     
    • Funny Funny x 2
    • Disagree Bacon! Disagree Bacon! x 1
  5. l_boy

    l_boy 5500

    12,676
    1,696
    3,068
    Jan 6, 2009
    So the threat of China taking over Taiwan where practically world wide advanced chips are assembled is not a real threat?
     
    • Wish I would have said that Wish I would have said that x 1
  6. docspor

    docspor GC Hall of Fame

    5,421
    1,744
    3,078
    Nov 30, 2010
    not sure I follow. A tariff protected supply chain of what? Everything? That would hurt national security.
    1. we'd have less wealth
    2. our industries would become less efficient
    3. we would cede mkt share to our "enemies" as we are doing
    4. a single supply line is dreadfully risky. Free trade usually creates a supply lattice. diversity reduces risk. looked on a bag of walmart trail mix....ingredients come from as many as 17 countries.
    5. free trade promotes peace
     
    • Like Like x 1
  7. docspor

    docspor GC Hall of Fame

    5,421
    1,744
    3,078
    Nov 30, 2010
    what does that have to do with tariffs?
     
  8. wgbgator

    wgbgator Premium Member

    29,360
    1,793
    1,968
    Apr 19, 2007
    Why should it be? We dont have to base all our economic decisions on WWII and Cold War anti-communism. Nationalist China is dead, let it go. Chang Kai Shek wasnt some swell guy either. On every China thread I have never seen someone say we should go to war for Taiwan either.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  9. gator_lawyer

    gator_lawyer VIP Member

    15,765
    5,464
    3,213
    Oct 30, 2017
    What?!?!?! I thought my trail mix was American made. How dare they!
     
    • Funny Funny x 1
  10. docspor

    docspor GC Hall of Fame

    5,421
    1,744
    3,078
    Nov 30, 2010
    [​IMG]
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  11. wgbgator

    wgbgator Premium Member

    29,360
    1,793
    1,968
    Apr 19, 2007
    I think in a country like America we are bound to get the worst of both worlds with protectionism. I suppose the jobs are fine for those that keep them, but are we going to build reliable supply chains or start producing critical goods in the USA in case of war or pandemic? No, we are going to leave our JIT stuff up and hope for the best. The government will just do the easy stuff, not the hard stuff of creating a "break in case of war/plague" supply chain and the insulating from the costs of economic warfare devolving into actual war.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  12. wgbgator

    wgbgator Premium Member

    29,360
    1,793
    1,968
    Apr 19, 2007
    You gotta buy the patriotic brand that explicitly says "No Brazil Nuts"
     
    • Funny Funny x 3
  13. docspor

    docspor GC Hall of Fame

    5,421
    1,744
    3,078
    Nov 30, 2010
    The Candlemakers' Petition

    We candlemakers are suffering from the unfair competition of a foreign rival. This foreign manufacturer of light has such an advantage over us that he floods our domestic markets with his product. And he offers it at a fantastically low price. The moment this foreigner appears in our country, all our customers desert us and turn to him. As a result, an entire domestic industry is rendered completely stagnant. And even more, since the lighting industry has countless ramifications with other native industries, they, too, are injured. This foreign manufacturer who competes against us without mercy is none other than the sun itself!

    Here is our petition: Please pass a law ordering the closing of all windows, skylights, shutters, curtains, and blinds — that is, all openings, holes, and cracks through which the light of the sun is able to enter houses. This free sunlight is hurting the business of us deserving manufacturers of candles. Since we have always served our country well, gratitude demands that our country ought not to abandon us now to this unequal competition.

    We hope that you gentlemen will not regard our petition as mere satire, or refuse it without at least hearing our reasons in support of it.

    First, if you make it as difficult as possible for the people to have access to natural light, and thus create an increased demand for artificial light, will not all domestic manufacturers be stimulated thereby?

    For example, if more tallow is consumed, naturally there must be more cattle and sheep. As a result, there will also be more meat, wool, and hides. There will even be more manure, which is the basis of agriculture.

    Next, if more oil is consumed for lighting, we shall have extensive olive groves and rape fields.

    Also, our wastelands will be covered with pines and other resinous trees and plants. As a result of this, there will be numerous swarms of bees to increase the production of honey. In fact, all branches of agriculture will show an increased development.

    The same applies to the shipping industry. The increased demand for whale oil will then require thousands of ships for whale fishing. In a short time, this will result in a navy capable of upholding the honor of our country and gratifying the patriotic sentiments of the candlemakers and other persons in related industries.

    The manufacturers of lighting fixtures — candlesticks, lamps, candelabra, chandeliers, crystals, bronzes, and so on — will be especially stimulated. The resulting warehouses and display rooms will make our present-day shops look poor indeed.

    The resin collectors on the heights along the seacoast, as well as the coal miners in the depths of the earth, will rejoice at their higher wages and increased prosperity. In fact, gentlemen, the condition of every citizen of our country — from the wealthiest owner of coal mines to the poorest seller of matches — will be improved by the success of our petition.

    Translated and slightly condensed by Dean Russell from Selected Works of Frederic Bastiat, Volume 1. Paris: Guillaumin, 1863. pp. 58-59.
     
  14. PITBOSS

    PITBOSS GC Hall of Fame

    7,369
    736
    548
    Apr 13, 2007
    A concern is if a country at the state level (China) targets an industry to drive out competition with unrealistic lower prices. The state helps supplement their own manufacturers as they cut prices and dump product on the world mkt. causing our manf to go under, then they have the market. Something we had to stop domestically 125 years ago.
     
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2024
    • Agree Agree x 2
  15. docspor

    docspor GC Hall of Fame

    5,421
    1,744
    3,078
    Nov 30, 2010
    Yep. That's protectionism for you. It's bad shit. & our protectionism encourages it. If you have good free trade relations, you have a lot of healthy ways to address these problems.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  16. wgbgator

    wgbgator Premium Member

    29,360
    1,793
    1,968
    Apr 19, 2007
    I started a thread on this the other day, but I was somewhat surprised that the US has active economic sanctions of some kind on roughly 1/3rd of the world's countries, and about 60% of the "developing world." It seems we have settled on economic warfare as a kind of proxy for actual warfare. But it seems like the US government has a limited imagination when dealing with perceived threats to its economic power. We've gotten by on domination and coercion so long, we cant imagine anyone else acting outside those principles if we get caught slipping.
     
  17. pkaib01

    pkaib01 GC Hall of Fame

    3,483
    740
    2,063
    Apr 3, 2007
    "America First" (ie protectionism) is up there with "woke", "fake news" and "trick down economics" for phrases that make me want to turn around and walk away, mid-conversation.

    Does Adam Smith get tired of spinning in his grave?
    [​IMG]
     
    • Like Like x 1
  18. wgbgator

    wgbgator Premium Member

    29,360
    1,793
    1,968
    Apr 19, 2007
    The invisible hand is spinning him, so no
     
    • Funny Funny x 1
  19. l_boy

    l_boy 5500

    12,676
    1,696
    3,068
    Jan 6, 2009
    Conceptually and practically I am usually pro free trade. But there may be times if a single supply chain develops mostly in an adversary that it would be be better to have either domestic or alternative supply lines. In which a case a tariff on the potential enemy, either selective or across the board, could be advantageous for national security purposes.

    I do not agree with across the board tariffs simply to protect economic interests. I think Trump canning the TPP was a huge mistake.

    I give chips in Taiwan as a potential risk - if China takes over we are dependent upon China. We are already dependent on China in other ways and I don’t think finding alternative supply routes, either through investment, incentives or tariffs should be off the table. What’s the point of investing in domestic technology only to let a foreign adversary steal it then undercut you by artificially subsidizing the technology?

    The idea that free trade prevents wars has been a universally held truth that is becoming strained. The issue is governments change, weak democracies become populist and authoritarian, and authoritarians are more likely to use war as a way to rally support within the domestic politicians to hide their economic troubles. Electronic media has changed the landscape and the ability of authoritarian leaning governments to control national messaging.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  20. wgbgator

    wgbgator Premium Member

    29,360
    1,793
    1,968
    Apr 19, 2007
    I mean the idea that economic warfare is all that effective is pretty strained to. North Korean and Cuba have been under sanctions longer than many people have been alive now. They havent even stopped NK from developing a nuke, nor have they managed to stop Iran or really affect Russia's ability to make war. In many cases those sanctions help transform those place's economies into "war economies" ... perhaps in the long run they will have problems in peace time, but isolation tends to reconfigure economies to endure hardship. Creating the conditions where there is a China / Russia orbit sort of make your view a self-fulfilling prophecy. To what extent has our own policy and abandonment of principle shaped this?