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War in Ukraine

Discussion in 'Too Hot for Swamp Gas' started by PITBOSS, Jan 21, 2022.

  1. tampagtr

    tampagtr VIP Member

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  2. exiledgator

    exiledgator Gruntled

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  3. PITBOSS

    PITBOSS GC Hall of Fame

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  4. tampagtr

    tampagtr VIP Member

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    Very historical, very epistemic so far about what defines a "nation". A bit mind-blowing about how many things we simply presume without thought, as you realize when he poses the questions
     
  5. tampagtr

    tampagtr VIP Member

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    Episode four is mind blowing for me based upon thought process I've had before, which is the very justified grievances of the Eastern/Slavic bloc, however you want to call it, against the Latin/Western nations, which we are of course descended from intellectually.

    I'll never forget presentation I attended years ago from some very aggrieved Orthodox about the fact that the Latins (Crusaders) friends weakened Constantinople on the way to a Crusade, which made the great city subsequently vulnerable to the Muslims. They also mentioned that Allied bombers bombed numerous of their capitals that were under occupation, destroying hit numerous older cathedrals, etc., but did not bomb Rome, which was the capital of an actual Axis enemy, to avoid destroying many of the older buildings and churches which constitute the patrimony of the West. I had to admit they had a point, two of them actually.

    He added yet a third quick example. The common western lineage of intellectual development of which we are taught - Greece lead to Rome, which then fell to the barbarians and the Dark Ages before the Renaissance and the modern European state rediscovery of their Greco-Roman heritage, which completely writes out the fact that Rome in the form of Byzantium at Constantinople lasted almost a millennium longer and actually preserved most of the texts, which the Europeans later "discovered" to trace back there intellectual history, omitting the East.
     
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  6. oragator1

    oragator1 Premium Member

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    We did bomb Rome, we stopped when they essentially surrendered.
    Bombing of Rome in World War II - Wikipedia
     
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  7. tampagtr

    tampagtr VIP Member

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    Episode four is mind blowing for me based upon thought process I've had before, which is the very justified grievances of the Eastern/Slavic bloc, however you want to call it, against the Latin/Western nations, which we are of course descended from intellectually.

    I'll never forget presentation I attended years ago from some very aggrieved Orthodox about the fact that the Latins (Crusaders) friends weakened Constantinople on the way to a Crusade, which made the great city subsequently vulnerable to the Muslims. They also mentioned that Allied bombers bombed numerous of their capitals that were under occupation, destroying hit numerous older cathedrals, etc., but did not bomb Rome, which was the capital of an actual Axis enemy, to avoid destroying many of the older buildings and churches which constitute the patrimony of the West. I had to admit they had a point, two of them actually.

    He added yet a third quick example. The common western lineage of intellectual development of which we are taught - Greece lead to Rome, which then fell to the barbarians and the Dark Ages before the Renaissance and the modern European state rediscovery of their Greco-Roman heritage, which completely writes out the fact that Rome in the form of Byzantium at Constantinople lasted almost a millennium longer and actually preserved most of the texts, which the Europeans later "discovered" to trace back there intellectual history, omitting the East.
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    I should clarify. What I meant is that we did not bomb it strategically the way we did other cities. We tried to pinpoint it in order to force a surrender. In fact, we thought we had the surrender negotiated, and then one way we did, before we ever invaded.
     
  8. tampagtr

    tampagtr VIP Member

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    And I'm relying upon my memory of Rick Atkinson's The Day of Battle. Been a few years
     
  9. sierragator

    sierragator GC Hall of Fame

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    Part of the Russian world view is they see themselves as the rightful heirs of the Roman Empire, specifically the Constantinople part that outlasted the western part of the empire (complete with the corruption, palace intrigue, power struggles, and expansionist tendencies).
     
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  10. tampagtr

    tampagtr VIP Member

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    Yeah he's covering that, the difference between the Franks and Byzantium, Czar vs. Charlemagne, both linguistically descended from Caesar
     
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  11. G8trGr8t

    G8trGr8t Premium Member

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    and the game of thrones continues, this time apparent allies of Putin were taken out. maybe they refused to volunteer their fortunes to support the war effort

    Two Russian Officials and Allies of Vladimir Putin Dead on the Same Day (msn.com)

    In an eerie turn of events, two high-profile allies of Vladimir Putin died on the same day. According to local press reports, Dzhasharbek Uzdenov and Nikolay Bortsov died on Sunday.

    Both were sitting members of the Russian Duma (equivalent to a parliament) and close allies of Putin.

    Bortsov was the richest deputy serving under Putin and was also listed by Forbes as one of Russia’s richest federal workers in 2021.

    He passed away at the age of 78, according to a Twitter post by Kyiv Today. The parliamentarian, an oligarch worth $550 million, was also sanctioned by the West upon Russia’s invasion of Ukraine.
     
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  12. G8trGr8t

    G8trGr8t Premium Member

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    more intel

    The Odd Case Of 'Russian Air Defense Vehicles' Showing Up On A Train In Ohio (msn.com)

    If you happened to be passing by Norfolk Southern's rail yard in Bellevue, Ohio, recently you might have come across something very usual. Two flatbed railcars were spotted there carrying what look exactly like Russian-made S-300 and Tor-M1 surface-to-air missile systems, but are very likely extremely high-fidelity mockups of them.

    Joseph Zadeh, a trainspotter who goes by @aboveaverage.joe on Instagram, was kind enough to share pictures he took of these railcars and their cargo with us. There are four vehicles in total seen, two each on the pair of commercial flatbed cars. The exact owners and/or operators of the railcars or their cargo are not currently known.
     
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  13. sierragator

    sierragator GC Hall of Fame

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    I'm sure this war is a gold mine of intel for the US and the west with respect to the Russian military and their equipment
     
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  14. uftaipan

    uftaipan GC Hall of Fame

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    Yes, it is. But, as I’ve stated ad naseum, it all means nothing if we allow Russia strategic victory. We have got to keep squeezing Russia to the point that it realizes victory, as it understands it, is hopeless.
     
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  15. 92gator

    92gator GC Hall of Fame

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    The difference is a matter of desperation and isolation--ie the circumstances in which Russia, and in particular, Putin, find themselves.

    What's more, we know Russia's capabilities.

    We know our own, esp. Wrt the F-35.

    We do not need to give Putin any excuse to divert from his own massive blunder by going nuclear, and having such an easy provocation to point to.

    For as little as I think of clueless Joe, to his credit...he isnt stupid or brazen enough to go over the military brass's head, and direct such recklessness.

    ...and it wouldn't come from the Pentagon (well, again, Id very much like to believe..., anyway).

    We'd sooner fly one over Bejing and get the same intel, without the near the same stakes, bc China might seek to shoot the plane down, but they would not [LITERALLY] seek to scorch THE earth.

    Russia is an antiquated rust bucket of a war machine with a still fatal nuclear arsenal, and an irrational leader.

    China is an aspiring, contemplative, calculating evil force that seeks to dominate the world and its resources--which it therefore understands must be preserved, in order to be dominated.

    TBL: head games vs. Intelligent foe are fine; test your wits, keep yourself sharp.

    Playing chicken with crazy is just down right reckless and stupid.

    (It's why we had been so protective and cagey about nuclear capability. Downright terrifying, having to use the past tense therr, btw).
     
    Last edited: Apr 28, 2023
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  16. chemgator

    chemgator GC Hall of Fame

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    It looks like the failed drone with the 17 kg of explosives had a very unusual target--Vladimir Putin, according to this source. Russia, of course, is covering up the apparent assassination attempt.

    Is Russia Covering Up an Assassination Attempt on Putin? (yahoo.com)

    Some Russians are going to be visiting the balcony over this, if they let out where Putin was going to be.
     
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  17. chemgator

    chemgator GC Hall of Fame

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    Of course it would come from the Pentagon--it would be irresponsible to NOT try to find an answer to this question. The U.S. depends so much on air superiority for battle plans, that war planning is completely different if it was likely that our 5th generation fighter/ bombers would get shot down by SAMs from the Russian side.

    And no, there is no chance that Russia would nuke anyone because our planes were flying above Ukraine and observing. If Russia was going to nuke anyone (besides Ukraine), they would have done it by now. Nuking the U.S. would result in annihilation of Russia's cities. That would be enough to dissuade Putin from attacking us as long as there is any chance that he could win this war conventionally. The U.S. has not fired one bullet at Russia in this war. Why start a second fight when you have your hands full with the first fight? Especially when you know with certainty that you can't win or even tie in the second fight.
     
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  18. chemgator

    chemgator GC Hall of Fame

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    Ukraine's new missile defense systems seem to work very well--they shot down 21 out of 23 inbound missiles from Russia.

    Ukrainian defenders destroy 21 Russian missile overnight (yahoo.com)

     
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  19. chemgator

    chemgator GC Hall of Fame

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    Russian army commanders realize that their war in Ukraine is hopeless, and look to cash out. In this case, by selling the engines for T-90 tanks. That is one focused and dedicated army you have there, Vlad.

    Russian army commander arrested for ‘selling tank engines’ (yahoo.com)

     
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  20. G8trGr8t

    G8trGr8t Premium Member

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    and some others will too just from the paranoia. that won't encourage loyalty