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War in Ukraine

Discussion in 'Too Hot for Swamp Gas' started by PITBOSS, Jan 21, 2022.

  1. oragator1

    oragator1 Premium Member

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    You mad bro? Read the whole thing.

     
  2. coleg

    coleg GC Hall of Fame

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    The Taliban had scaled back a great deal leading to withdrawal, the complete opposite of your claim. They knew Trump had given it to them so they were not going to jeopardize that by unnecessarily attacking. You are again completely wrong ( a pattern apparently) in that troop reductions were a part of Trump's negotiations. Biden was left with a losing hand.
     
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  3. oragator1

    oragator1 Premium Member

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    Oh, and by the way.
     
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  4. demosthenes

    demosthenes Premium Member

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    I thought we’re to believe Russia would have stayed out of Ukraine because of Trump?
     
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  5. chemgator

    chemgator GC Hall of Fame

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    An interesting article on the reluctance of Germany and France to fully support Ukraine. A lot of Germans (80%) think they should stop spending money supporting Ukraine. Their leaders seem uninterested in rebuilding their military with the 2% spending commitment on national defense, which is a disgrace. They seem very much willing to continue letting the U.S. defend them. Their leaders seem more interested in profits than national safety and supporting freedom and democracy.

    Both France and Germany have been trying to increase trade with China, with little regard for Uighyurs, Taiwan, and all of the other countries that China has screwed or plotted against.

    Germany is locked in a toxic love affair with Putin and Xi

    This was one part I do not agree with:
    The Cold War happened because Russia was insistent on all countries within their sphere of control, including their quarter of Germany, being puppet states of Moscow. Stalin had no intention of allowing their part of Germany to be "neutral".
     
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  6. chemgator

    chemgator GC Hall of Fame

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    Ukraine has 40,000 soldiers training as "storm brigade" troops for the counter-offensive.

    Ukraine is training 40,000 'storm brigade' troops to strengthen the planned counter-offensive against Russia

     
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  7. oragator1

    oragator1 Premium Member

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    80 percent of people didn’t say to stop supporting them, they said a negotiated peace was more important than an outright win. Given Germany’s history, this isn’t shocking.
    German public support for Ukraine is falling

    and when the questions are asked another way, German support is still solid.
    Polls Show Western Public Favors General Support for Ukraine, But Is Increasingly Skeptical About Supplying Arms | Russia Matters

    I would also point out that in sheer dollars, Germany is only behind the US, GB and Poland. They just sent another 12 billion.

    Germany to send additional 12 billion euros in military support to Ukraine
     
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  8. okeechobee

    okeechobee GC Hall of Fame

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    I stopped here. Get a grip on reality, please.
     
  9. okeechobee

    okeechobee GC Hall of Fame

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    I should have known after you said "a few weeks" in the previous post that you don't know what the hell you're talking about. Biden can delay the withdrawal 4 months, he can send thousands of troops in at the last minute, but yeah, he was locked into that 2,500 troop number because of Trump. Nothing the Commander In Chief of the most powerful empire in the world could do but sit and do nothing, as American lives were at stake. What a joke.
     
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  10. okeechobee

    okeechobee GC Hall of Fame

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    Irrefutable facts.
     
  11. ajoseph

    ajoseph Premium Member

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    The Syrian debacle tells me that Trump was not going to listen to his generals in Afghanistan and would not have stopped the hastened withdrawal. He was committed to leave Afghanistan. And he did so by knee-capping the legitimacy and authority of the Afghan government when he negotiated directly with the Taliban at the exclusion of the Afghan government.

    In another post, you remarked that world leaders were skeptical of Trump because he lacked statesmanship (or words to that effect). I think that is a gross understatement. I think world leaders, including our traditional and non-traditional allies, didn’t trust Trump. I don’t think Trump’s advisors trusted Trump, particularly if we believe the words of his advisors once they moved on from Trump. He lacked far more than mere “statesmanship.”
     
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  12. duggers_dad

    duggers_dad GC Hall of Fame

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    Hehe, warmongers arguing back and forth.
     
  13. duggers_dad

    duggers_dad GC Hall of Fame

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    From the NYT …

    upload_2023-4-10_9-11-0.png
     
  14. uftaipan

    uftaipan GC Hall of Fame

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    I do not rule out the possibility. There is just no way of telling what someone “would have” done. Almost without exception, what they tell you they “would have” done reflects the best case outcome for them: “I would have had Pearl Harbor on full alert that morning. It was obvious the Japanese were going to attack there and then.” With Trump it is even harder to predict with any certainty what he probably would have done, given his erratic and emotional decision making. Your guess is as good as anyone’s, but my assessment is that in spring of 2021, when it was obvious the Taliban were making an offensive to take the whole country before the fighting season ended, he would have declared that the Taliban had broken the agreement, stopped the withdrawal, and bombed them back to the agreed territories. As I stated earlier, he did fail to listen to his generals on Syria, but he also did reverse himself when the situation immediately trended toward disaster. But we will never know. If Trump had done what Biden did and abandoned Afghanistan under enemy pressure, then he would deserve every bit of the second-guessing and ire that President Biden deserves today. But I strongly dispute the notion that Trump had tied Biden’s hands and, therefore, that this is all still Trump’s fault somehow despite Biden making the critical decisions. Biden was not “bound” by Trump in this matter anymore than he was bound to complete the Wall or refuse to negotiate with Iran until they complied with their end of the nuclear deal. It just so happens this was a matter in which Biden and Trump agreed in principle as the situation stood in early 2021. But Biden 100% owns the critical decisions, the outcome in Afghanistan, and the geopolitical second and third-order effects. That is what it means to be President.
    I did not mean to understate Trump’s boorish behavior in his dealings with NATO and in most other ways, such as his interactions with the media, courts, Congress, etc. I will happily concur with whatever degree you want to assign. My point, however, was that his basic argument of many NATO members not pulling their fair share in accordance with their capabilities was correct and remains so today. If we think of NATO as a family, then I think it’s okay to tactfully but firmly dress down members of your own family when they are not doing their part and expecting you to do everything. But what you don’t do is call out your own family members publicly with the purpose of embarrassing them. Whatever degree of boorish behavior (the GC rules prevent me from using more colorful metaphors) we want to assign to Trump on this issue, I am in violent agreement.
     
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2023
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  15. duggers_dad

    duggers_dad GC Hall of Fame

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    US defending democracy, in Ukraine and Taiwan, while illegally occupying Syria.
     
  16. coleg

    coleg GC Hall of Fame

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    Poor Ivan, wonder what has upset him? Russia posted a $29 billion deficit in the first quarter as energy revenue plummets — and it could spell trouble for the country's military bills . Those economic sanctions that were simply falling apart because Japan bought a little oil, perhaps Putin should sell a few of his luxury dachas. LOL
     
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  17. oragator1

    oragator1 Premium Member

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    And those are the public numbers, good chance it is worse than what they are saying.
    It was always going to take time for the sanctions to bite. It seems like they finally are. And if the world falls into a recession it will get much worse.
     
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  18. uftaipan

    uftaipan GC Hall of Fame

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    I read it. Nazi Germany and Soviet Russia could have made just as good of an argument in 1939 for why Poland wasn’t a thing. And I would have been just as persuaded then as I am now about Ukraine.

    But what really confuses me is why Russia is still making arguments (even dumb ones) such as this. When they openly invaded Ukraine last year, they decided to settle the matter by force of arms. So rational arguments are no longer necessary, and no one needs to pretend otherwise. If Ukraine is not a thing, then go take it … if you can. (But it doesn’t look like you can)
     
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  19. ajoseph

    ajoseph Premium Member

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    I agree with basically everything you said, including a final resting point of blame on Biden for Afghanistan. Biden was President when the debacle occurred, and he gets the full slate of blame. I strongly agree with your points on NATO.
     
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  20. ajoseph

    ajoseph Premium Member

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    They’ll make the arguments because people forget, and the more they say something, the more people might start to believe.
     
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