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War in Ukraine

Discussion in 'Too Hot for Swamp Gas' started by PITBOSS, Jan 21, 2022.

  1. chemgator

    chemgator GC Hall of Fame

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    Germans park a destroyed Russian tank in front of the Russian embassy in Berlin, with the main gun pointed toward the embassy. "Shame, shame, we know your name."

    Two Germans parked a mangled Russian tank in front of the Russian embassy in Berlin as an anniversary gift

    [​IMG]
    A ruined Russian T-72 tank sits on a flatbed truck outside the Russian embassy in Berlin, in February 2023.Enno Lenze
     
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  2. slayerxing

    slayerxing GC Hall of Fame

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    Whatever reason for not finishing Ukraine in 2014 I bet he regrets it now lol
     
  3. okeechobee

    okeechobee GC Hall of Fame

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    Problem with this theory is that it would also give Ukraine 8 years to build up their military and an 8 year head start on preparing for a larger invasion. Not to mention all the love from the West in helping to prepare for that scenario.

    Is Vlad Putin a cold calculating murderer? Yes. But he was content with enriching Russia, himself and his oligarch cronies. He is not on a global conquest for world domination. Yes, he did speak of Ukraine being part of Russia, but this was simply fodder for the people. Economically speaking, it’s far easier for Putin to control Kyiv at an arm’s length distance than to occupy the 2nd largest nation in Europe. Yes, he invaded Georgia, but promptly withdrew once objectives were met. It’s truly difficult to get to his economic prowess without being somewhat exceptionally smart and cunning. It is not in his interests to be paying the pensions for residents of Lviv.
     
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  4. oragator1

    oragator1 Premium Member

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  5. exiledgator

    exiledgator Gruntled

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    Ukraine’s Volodymur Zelensky says he plans to meet China’s Xi Jinping

    My knee jerk thoughts: Z trying to further isolate Ivan. What's China's get out of any negotiations? An exit ramp for Belt and Road? I don't see how he can offer China much that the West would accept.

    And I don't see Xi being behind full territorial integrity for Ukraine and any less than that is a deal breaker for Zelensky.
     
  6. danmanne65

    danmanne65 GC Hall of Fame

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    Putin may be good with a war of attrition but Russia isn’t. They are going to lose a generation of men. Either thru dieing or immigration. They have been in a negative population situation for awhile. Demographics are not Putin’s friend.
     
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2023
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  7. chemgator

    chemgator GC Hall of Fame

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    Until a week or so before the invasion, Europe and the U.S. had no idea that Russia would invade. Most of Europe was in denial even as Russia massed troops on the border. Why would these countries hand over military equipment to a country that they didn't think was being invaded? You are assuming that Europe knew that Russia would invade Ukraine in the eight years before the invasion, and that simply isn't true. Europe also thought of of Ukraine as a corrupt country, which it was at the time. So there was no reason for Europe to send military aid to a corrupt country that they didn't think was going to be invaded. Until Europe and the U.S. saw how fiercely Ukraine fought back against Russia, they couldn't be sure that military equipment sent to Ukraine wouldn't be turned over to Russia as part of a quick surrender. Why would any country want to supply military hardware to their enemy?

    I think that what Wesley Clark said was accurate. Putin saw Russia's future as becoming more bleak as time went by, and needed to capture successful states on his border to regain economic momentum for Russia. (Countries with oil and natural gas reserves know that their reserves are limited, and will be valued less as other nations switch to renewable energy.) He did not have any answers as to how to improve Russia from within, as some of those answers involved ditching the dictatorship. Propaganda and control over the news was only getting him so far. Russians were largely giving up, and not striving to make Russia successful, as there was nothing in it for the little people. Putin had a large army, and when you only have a hammer, every problem starts looking like a nail.

    Putin has no economic prowess. He is an idiot, living large on what he skims from the faltering Russian economy. He is good at gathering intelligence, spying on the people around him, and manipulating simple-minded people into thinking he is exceptionally smart and cunning. He has little or no ability to develop Russia's economy or inspire the Russian people. He gets what he wants through threats. He is the chief mafia kingpin in an economy built as a series of mafia enterprises. True, Russia does not want to occupy Ukraine. It wants to set up a government that does exactly what Putin tells it to do, and sends tribute to Moscow.

    What makes you think Russia would pay for the pensions for residents of Lviv? Putin would let them starve. If letting them live was a cost with no economic benefit to him, he would let them starve. He is a thug. That's what thugs do.
     
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2023
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  8. exiledgator

    exiledgator Gruntled

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    Russia is absolutely screwed demographically. They were before this war. Now even more so with the increased loss of youth and not just in quantity but also in quality as there's been a massive brain-drain exodus.

    It's almost as if there were only two options:

    Reform politically and economically, join liberal western democracies in free trade, and prosper, or;

    Engage in conquest to keep alive the criminal state.

    Overly simplistic? Yes. But wrong?
     
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  9. slayerxing

    slayerxing GC Hall of Fame

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    you keep saying things about Putin like you have some special insight the rest of us don’t. Most people in the west have been wrong about his intentions. Id stop trying to guess those.
     
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  10. duggers_dad

    duggers_dad GC Hall of Fame

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    The BBC and the dissident group Meduza can only confirm 14,000 Russian dead and that includes allies.

    If Russia is going to lose a generation of men it needs to adopt Ukrainian human waves tactics.
     
  11. duggers_dad

    duggers_dad GC Hall of Fame

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  12. duggers_dad

    duggers_dad GC Hall of Fame

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    "We are not degrading [Russia’s] ability to fight with the sanctions. So we're in a war of attrition where we're not destroying their capacity and we're not ramping up production on our side. So you tell me how you win a war of attrition where you're not attriting."

    — Historian Stephen Kotkin —
     
  13. danmanne65

    danmanne65 GC Hall of Fame

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    I thought at first that Putin was faking intent to invade Ukraine trying to get gas prices to rise and bolster russias economy. If he had done that it would have been brilliant. Now I believe he has been in charge so long and has eliminated all those who disagree with him that I think whatever genius he had has been overwhelmed by thinking that what he wants somehow will happen.
     
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  14. duggers_dad

    duggers_dad GC Hall of Fame

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    To the contrary, he’s a moderate in his cabinet. If hardliners were in charge Ukraine would be smoking rubble to the Polish border.
     
  15. apkgator

    apkgator GC Hall of Fame

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    Yep....we've all been laughing at you for hundreds of pages now
     
  16. duggers_dad

    duggers_dad GC Hall of Fame

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    Guess who’s laughing back ?

    upload_2023-2-25_11-9-24.jpeg
     
  17. oragator1

    oragator1 Premium Member

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    It was always clear to me he was serious, as it was to the administration. They spent months in the lead up gaining consensus among the allies on how to react.
    As far as Putin, when an absolute narcissi gets ultimate power and rouges anyone who dare disagree with him, it’s a terrible combo. There were widespread reports last year that his intelligence service told him they would be greeted with flowers and as liberators when they waltzed into Ukraine. And that was because no one wanted to tell him anything other than great news. You would hope that all of this is a wake up call for the man, but I doubt it.
     
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  18. okeechobee

    okeechobee GC Hall of Fame

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    So, lemme get this straight. Putin realized in 2014 that his own military was highly corrupt and incompetent, not ready for a full-scale invasion, so he poured massive amounts of cash into that same military between 2014 and 2022, but in 2022 he didn't realize most of said massive amounts of cash went to corruption? LOL, for realz??
     
  19. chemgator

    chemgator GC Hall of Fame

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    The Russian government may be comfortable with a war of attrition, but I promise you that the Russian people are not. Many Russians get unfettered internet access, and the average citizen is much more prosperous than the average citizen was in the 1940's. People who are more prosperous (and know the truth) tend to value their own lives more (and are less susceptible to propaganda, unless they are really gullible). The U.S. was a lot more comfortable with losing hundreds of thousands of troops in WWII, and now we quiver at the loss of almost any troops--we are a lot wealthier now, and value human life more now.

    And, yes, there was an actual army on Moscow's doorstep in 1943. Winning a war of attrition is a lot better than losing a war of annihilation.

    This isn't your great grandfather's USSR. There isn't something in their DNA that makes them perfectly willing to join a war of conquest and "take one for the team".
     
  20. okeechobee

    okeechobee GC Hall of Fame

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    But you have all the answers?