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War in Ukraine

Discussion in 'Too Hot for Swamp Gas' started by PITBOSS, Jan 21, 2022.

  1. slayerxing

    slayerxing GC Hall of Fame

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    So many bad takes right now. Geez
     
  2. chemgator

    chemgator GC Hall of Fame

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    Time for you to eat a little crow. Russia is now talking about pushing back Poland's borders. How far back? (To Warsaw?) They're not saying.

    Russia's Medvedev floats idea of pushing back Poland's borders

    What next? Are you going to defend the statements by saying, "They aren't going to INVADE Poland! They're just going to push back the borders a little bit! You know, until they feel comfortable!" Or are you going to say, "It's just rhetoric. It doesn't mean anything. It could be a negotiating ploy."
     
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  3. okeechobee

    okeechobee GC Hall of Fame

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    It has always been the perceived (whether for right or for wrong) security threat or paranoia over Ukraine falling into the wrong hands and/or joining NATO. Russia was perfectly content with Ukraine having a pro-Kremlin leader. It wasn't until Maidan they began making incursions onto Ukrainian soil. Also believe if annexing Ukraine was Putin's end game all along, he would not have waited until he was 70 to execute his plan. Putin saw Maidan as a western-backed plot to hold a sphere of influence over Ukraine. I'm not justifying his actions, but I do think he views Ukraine joining NATO as an existential threat. That has been very apparent for a long, long time if you have followed events in Ukraine over the past 20 years.
     
  4. okeechobee

    okeechobee GC Hall of Fame

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    I am not saying it was the smart or correct move, but that's what it is. Hopefully you don't think Putin would sacrifice all of this just to increase his wheat exports. And hopefully you can see there is a hefty incentive for the US to be as involved as they are, otherwise we wouldn't be.
     
  5. l_boy

    l_boy 5500

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    I don’t doubt that he believes that, but I’m not sure how much we take into account a delusional man’s fantasies in shaping foreign policy. Putin has made incursions into Georgia and obviously effectively holds Belarus. In other places I keep hearing this narrative if only we had ignored Eastern European nations efforts to reform and join NATO or E.U., and let something like 100 million Eastern Europeans linger in Russian influence purgatory, Putin would be our best bud and everything would be great.
     
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  6. Sohogator

    Sohogator GC Hall of Fame

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    Do not engage. Works well for me.
     
  7. mdgator05

    mdgator05 Premium Member

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    "A good portion." We are talking orders of magnitude less territory than they lost during the last Ukrainian offensive. Ukraine reclaimed 54% of the land that Russia had gained during the initial invasion. Currently, Russia is fighting over literal blocks. They have claimed a single population center (not even a city, a village with like 15K people or so pre-war). So "a good portion" seems purposefully vague with the goal of equating something that is orders of magnitude less.
     
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  8. okeechobee

    okeechobee GC Hall of Fame

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    Ukraine has always been Putin’s red line. For right or for wrong, it has always been that way.
     
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  9. chemgator

    chemgator GC Hall of Fame

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    Russia is doomed. The Leopard 2 tank, when it arrives in Ukraine, will dominate and humiliate Russia while balancing a German beer on the end of its main battle gun. Russian soldiers are going to be distracted, staring at the beer, right before they get blown to smithereens. The only question is, will it take more than one of these beer-balancing tanks to defeat Russia?

    Inside the Leopard 2, the German beer-balancing tank - and why Ukraine desperately wants them

    OTOH, it is said that Russians can balance a liter of vodka on their T-72 tank and it won't fall off, but that's mostly because the tank is broken down and cannot move. It probably helps that the bottle is empty and is glued down, also.

    [​IMG]
    Beer is balanced on the end of the gun on a Leopard tank to demonstrate its steadiness
     
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  10. chemgator

    chemgator GC Hall of Fame

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    Ukraine was almost certainly Putin choice for first victim of his expansion campaign because it has the strongest army. Defeat the biggest opponent first, and the others will give up without a fight. Also, if you defeat another country first, Ukraine would have time to strengthen its defenses, and Putin wouldn't want that.
     
  11. mdgator05

    mdgator05 Premium Member

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    Russia is concerned about maintaining the giant money laundering system that is its true source of wealth. We are talking somewhere in the 13 figures in wealth developed by that system (which cleans the world's dirty money). Ukraine was useful in that system under the corrupt Russian-aligned leaders. They didn't really care about the government of Ukraine even after they were deposed until Zelensky was elected with the explicit promise of getting rid of some of the important corrupt figures (that past governments hadn't gotten rid of during their days). They were fine just keeping them busy and putting pressure on them with the hope of an even more aligned government developing. But when Zelensky came to power targeting a couple of important figures to Russia, suddenly that was a big threat.

    Russia isn't a country in a traditional sense. They are mostly a criminal organization with the trappings of statehood.
     
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2023
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  12. chemgator

    chemgator GC Hall of Fame

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    Most likely Ukraine is playing defense while they wait for western tanks and Bradleys. Why fight an infantry war that plays to Russia's strengths, when you can play for time and then beat the crap out of Russia with far superior tanks (even Russia's military experts agree on that)?

    But I suppose you are the type of fairweather fan that only cheers for the team that's winning at this very instant. Sad.
     
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  13. chemgator

    chemgator GC Hall of Fame

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    What a load of crap. The Nazis were on the doorstep outside Moscow in 1943. How many divisions of Ukraine are in Russia, much less at the outer gates of Moscow? None. Does the U.S. maintain a sphere of influence over Canada and Mexico? Do we periodically invade these countries any time they elect a leader we don't agree with?

    Russians are not that stupid. They know their survival is not at stake. It is a property grab, pure and simple. You should probably read up on your history, and spend less time getting "information" from Tucker Carlson.
     
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  14. chemgator

    chemgator GC Hall of Fame

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    Ukraine gets its first four Leopards. The scary tanks with the beer on the barrel are coming for the Russians.

    Poland sends first batch of Leopard 2 tanks to Ukraine

     
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  15. chemgator

    chemgator GC Hall of Fame

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    Some more info on the tank wars. Russia has lost about 1630 tanks (about half of their arsenal) since the war started. Ukraine has made a net gain of 50 tanks since the war started, by capturing Russian tanks from Russian soldiers who were too busy pissing their pants to get back in their tanks and drive away. So, for those who think the Russians might be winning, here is a summary:

    Russia: -1630 tanks
    Ukraine: +50 tanks

    Looks to me like Ukraine is not only winning, but dominating. And that's BEFORE it gets its hands on the first western tanks that are expected to obliterate the Russian army. Ukraine wants 300 western tanks before they start their counter-offensive. I bet they start it with 200 or less. Russian troops are terrified of these tanks. Russian war bloggers are terrified of these tanks, and they aren't usually afraid of anything.

    Tanks to Ukraine: From Leopard 2 to Challenger 2 – your questions answered

     
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  16. okeechobee

    okeechobee GC Hall of Fame

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    Makes no sense. Why didn’t he finish the job in 2014? Why give Ukraine 8 years to build up? Using your same logic. Ukraine would have been far easier to topple in 2014 and have been far less prepared.
     
  17. chemgator

    chemgator GC Hall of Fame

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    Former U.S. General Wesley Clark weighs in on the War in Ukraine.

    Putin's war is driven by his fears of Russia's decline. That gives Ukraine a path to victory.

    Here is what he thinks is the REAL REASON for Russia's invasion of Ukraine:
     
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  18. okeechobee

    okeechobee GC Hall of Fame

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    LOL, I’m glad you made that last comment, because I was just about to ask you if this is some sort of cheerleading contest to you? Well, you answered that.
     
  19. chemgator

    chemgator GC Hall of Fame

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    He may have had hopes that the political pendulum would have swung back towards a pro-Russian candidate. Maybe he didn't think his army was ready for a full-scale invasion. Putin probably recognized that his own military was highly corrupt and incompetent, and needed massive amounts of cash to upgrade before any large-scale invasion could occur with any hope for victory. He put the cash into the military for eight years, but didn't realize that most of it went to corruption.
     
  20. okeechobee

    okeechobee GC Hall of Fame

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    If there was any truth to those figures, Russia would have been driven out of Ukraine a long time ago. Look, I am glad Ukraine is putting up a helluva fight and I hope they pull it off, but stop patronizing us.
     
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