Lots of good stuff in there that should be persuasive for most Americans. My only point of contention is on the word genocide, which I routinely point out is overused to the point of hyperbole. Genocide means something very specific and the actual instances of it are rare historically. Not all wars of conquest are genocide, even when it is one ethnic group squaring off against another and even when mass atrocities are inflicted by the strong upon the weak. In my opinion, the Russians do not want to erase the blood of the Ukrainians from the face of the earth. In fact, having to kill them all would run at cross-purposes to their desired end state. They want to subjugate them into being good Little Russians again, working the fields, factories, and armed forces. And that hardly makes the Russians good people, but it is not genocide.
I would concur use of the word genocide in all but the rarest of cases. Policymakers hate it because it actually triggers legal obligations under international law. It obligates various signatories to militarily intervene. So even in cases that are arguably genocidal, many policymakers are hesitant to employ the term. So I would concur. I was gently talking about the same thing that I think you agree with, that there is a perfectly cynical reason for wanting to support the Ukrainians. It is in our interest as well, at least if you want to live in the type of world that we generally live in
I grant NATO is there for protection of the nations that are members of NATO. As for Europe being at our door step Europe is an ocean away. In short when the war becomes NATO's problem it becomes our problem. Whether one agrees or disagrees the expansion of NATO to Russia's borders becomes a Russian concern and to ignore that concern adds fuel to the fire.
Where was this expansion of NATO's borders to Russia? Looks like the only NATO border with Russia will be with Finland, Putin really underestimated badly.
You first issue doesn't carry much weight. Global trade with Russia and other nations was plentiful for all prior to this war. What makes you think that trade is going to stop after the war? Their is but one nation that has been shunned concerning trade across the globe with exception of a few nations and that is North Korea. As for point number two. I highly doubt free labor is in the cards natural resources on the other hand go to the victor and become the cost of war and land acquisition. Keep in mind if Ukraine becomes the victor those resources will not be ours much less anyone else's. Ukraine will decide what to do with those resources. I am well aware decisions have consequences as well as rewards. Choosing not to decide or remain neutral is a decision one makes when it doesn't affect them one way or the other. Personally I have made my choice based on the fact Ukraine is not the only place that has the natural resources that we need or use from a global trade perspective nor is Ukraine vital to the survival of the United States or Europe for that matter. As is Ukraine's export capabilities and economy are currently in shambles yet everyone has managed to get resources from elsewhere. While it may not be the preferred origin of resource this is of minor consequence.
There is no comparison when it comes to the holocaust concerning the war between Ukraine and Russia. If anything the closest thing that comes to that at the moment is the treatment of Uyghurs by China. Yet trade with China hasn't subsided on iota. As for significantly weakening Russia we also weaken ourselves from both an economical and resource depletion perspective. American citizens are the ones carrying the lion's share of this war from an economic standpoint (IE paying for Ukraine's current government and military) as well as resources. In other words the beans, bullets and band-aids as well as their governmental salaries and expenditures. When do you expect to see an ROI that replenishes US citizen expenditures? The answer is never regardless of who wins this war.
As I understand it, Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia each border Russia - and arguably a small part of Poland. Finland is a much longer border though.
To answer your question I have two sons, two daughters, two grandsons and two granddaughters not to mention nephews and nieces. They have known nothing but war since 9/11 my oldest sons birthday btw. My eldest son, nephews and a niece participated in the wars since 9/11. I've lost two nephews to suicide my son and son law suffer from PTSD as well as health issues as a result of these wars. I come from a family rich in military history and I am well aware of the consequences of war and if you think for one minute that Ukraine matters to me in the grand scheme of things on this planet you are woefully wrong. Tug at the heart strings if you must but until you or your family pay the price of war you might think twice about any commitment you should make to that end. Am I OK with that child in a bomb shelter? Absolutely not and diplomacy is the only way this war ends unless there is a clear victor in this dispute.
No it is not at our doorstep as NATO has not been dragged into the war. I will say NATO nations have chosen to fight a proxy war. Russia has not advanced against NATO nor do I believe they will.
This response has nothing to do with my original post. I said this specifically: “It’s stop Putin now (or at least give him serious pause on his next escapade) or deal with a more powerful Putin later on our doorstep.” Tyrants and bullies are emboldened by the inaction or passive response of their enemies, this wouldn’t end with Ukraine. Just as it didn’t end with Georgia, Crimea etc., eventually he will be somewhere we have critical interest in enough that we are sending troops and spending trillions. It’s better to deal with him now, for a fraction of the cost and no American lives. This is the understanding isolationists never seem to have.
Yeah it is. luckily for us someone else is doing the actual fighting, but big picture for the world order - hell yes it’s our fight.
Some of you need to suit up and get to fighting. At last check, Zelensky was feeding old men into the meat grinder.
Appeasement never works. History has shown that over and over again. The world can live just fine without Russian resources and they will continue to be a pariah nation until they leave Ukraine and mitigate the immense damage they have caused.
