War in Ukraine

1. This here is a wet dream. Russia would never fire on NATO. It would be suicide. I know it, you know it, everyone knows it so don't peddle that BS here. So yes, US and NATO forces would be able to surge on the Ukrainian border without fear of reprisal.
2. I said the US and NATO would stop at the Ukrainian border (the currently illegally annexed territories). They would have no need to invade Russia as far as I can tell in an imaginary scenario where nukes weren't used. So there would be no Vietnam. And there is no million many army to save Russian forces in Ukrainian territory like in Korea.
3. Russian's have good artillery. So does the US, and they aren't even using their longest range munitions. If the US brought in hundreds of MRLS and HIMARS with all their variant munitions, with air superiority that they would most certainly possess, Russian artillery would be decimated in a matter of weeks. Ukraine has been successful with just a handful of HIMARS. Just imagine what 20 times that number would do to Russian forces on the front.
4. Russia is already relying on old weapon stockpiles and purchasing more from North Korea. The US and Nato allies would also have clear lines of resupply through Ukraine and through the black sea, like I said, especially if Turkey enters the conflict with the rest of NATO. The US military also has the best logistics of any military in the world.

 

The US military destroyed, at the time, the 4th largest army on earth in about 5 weeks
During air and ground operations, U.S. and allied forces destroyed over 3,000 tanks, 1,400 armored personnel carriers, and 2,200 artillery pieces along with countless other vehicles during desert storm. This was achieved at a cost to the United States of 96 soldiers killed in action, 2 died of wounds, and 105 non-hostile deaths.

So yeah.. I'd say that was a win

 

Do not understand your (1) at all. Are you suggesting that Putin is so intimidated, by various European militaries, that he’d never strike them, preemptively, even if the US was part-and-parcel of bringing WWWIII to Russia ? (2) is neither here no there. The new oblasts ARE Russia now. If the US wants to take them they’re invading Russia. In a sense, this makes preemptive strikes an easier case for Russia. If they’re firing missiles at Lviv now, how constrained are they likely to be firing them over the Dneiper ? (3) again, Russia possess, in abundance, launchers that match and exceed anything the US has PLUS they can fire long range missiles, very large ones, very fast ones from its own backyard. (4) ... The Return of Industrial Warfare

 

This had to have sent Gen. Milley into white rage ... Army’s long-awaited Iraq war study finds Iran was the only winner in a conflict that holds many lessons for future wars

 

That was a failure of politics and occupation. The US military should not be occupying anything.

The US military came in and conquered. And then we asked them to build a country. Not their job, and really it has nothing to do with this conversation.

I would be willing to listen about how US occupation of Russia would fail. For sure. Totally agree.

That's not what we are talking about. We are talking about the US attacking a forward deployed force and destroying their corresponding equipment, logistics, and air defenses. That is something the US is very good at. It would be an expensive massacre and no wishing it away changes that.

The Russians can't even hit UKRAINIAN military targets with enough regularity to have won the war already, I don't know what reality you live in that you think they would do better against US and all of NATO.

And yeah... unlike Ukraine who has not been supplied with long range weapons, anything Russia fires that isn't shot down...... they're going to have people shooting back at them.

And yeah - you haven't even mentioned the USAF which is smart. Because Russia seemingly doesn't have an answer. They can't even control Ukrainian airspace.

EDIT - and let me add it won't be just the US shooting. But the UK, Germany, France, Turkey, etc.

 

Which goes to illustrate that the US knows how to bomb cities to rubble, but not actually how to win a war. Russia has had people shooting at them since day one. And with likely no more than 10% of its available war machine, it’s systematically bringing to dust, twice over, America’s great proxy. Now of course it could have just bombed cities to rubble from the beginning. But that’s what the US does. And any attempts to ‘go Iraq’ on Russia would end in spectacular failure. But of course the Pentagon knows this. And they have the heads-up. War games vs Russia end badly for the US. Every time.

 

Your referendum is bogus and ignored totally. Forget that, we have already. And no your launchers do not match... lol Israel laughs at the 300's especially. Russia is facing zero long range retaliation now and can't cope. Add in Allied long range and game over.

 

I’ll have you know it’s the referenda of the people who’ve been shelled by your people for years. Also ...

 

Russia is bombing cities to rubble RIGHT NOW - WAKE UP!
destroyed ukrainian cities - Google Search

 

The Republican Guard and the "fearsome" Hammarabi division was annhiliated almost immediately.

While the Iraqi tank men were "cranking" on the T72 turret "worm-gear" they were getting "Brewed Up" - They never had a chance.........

 

And the NYT is arguing that Russia’s running out of missiles because it only killed 14 civilians. Honestly, you can’t make this stuff up.

 

If full ground divisions came in from NATO they would have to survive literally HUNDREDS of long range artillery and missile strikes. They can barely handle the few dozen Ukraine has hobbled together. The head in the sand on this one is hilarious. And I haven't even talked about US armored divisions if it came to that.

I tend to agree with UFtaipan though that the US would probably let Ukraine do the heavy lifting on the ground and just rain fire from the skies with the US airforce. It would be interesting to finally see some 5th generation fighters get some actual air combat against each other. But the US and NAto has just far more than Russia at this point, so it wouldn't be interesting for long. Once Russia was forced out of Ukraine I assume the US would just hold their position and sue for peace.

Again, it's all fantasy though. Russia knows they can't win a conventional war IN UKRAINE against western forces so they would be forced to retaliate with non-conventional weapons.

 

Iraq had such a primitive air defense that lumbering B-52’s were able to loiter with impunity. Contrast with Vietnam where the US lost 10,000 aircraft ...

List of aircraft losses of the Vietnam War - Wikipedia

 

No you can't. Russia fired about 80 missiles, millions of dollars worth of military equipment, and only killed 14 people and injured over 100 more... Crazy... INEFFECTIVE. But yeah this russian super military would be able to push back ALL OF NATO.

TROLOLOLOLOL

 

The Vietnam war was 60 years ago dude. Like... a lot of other things have happened since then. Almost none of the planes or air defenses used in that war would be used in the hypothetical stomping we are discussing today.

 

All breast-beating is predicated on blind suppositions like: Russia hitting Ukraine with everything it’s got and struggling mightily.

Again (to date at least) this has almost been like a continuation of the War of Donbas but with more support from Russia.

Drawing an expedition force from its peacetime army, Russia has (until now) ceded authority (and close-in fighting) to the same local militias which halted the Ukrainians in the civil war.

Primarily (until now) Russia has restricted itself primarily to artillery support, missiles, aircraft and logistics.

 

Dude, the main thing that’s happened, since ten, is that the US military has been in marked decline. Crow all you want about stealth ... it ain’t invisible.

 

The mental gymnastics it takes to bridge the gap between ‘Putin genocidal maniac’ and ‘Ha-Ha! It took him 80 missiles to kill 14 people!” is breathtaking.

 

Anyways, sorry everyone - back on topic.

Daily update: Ukraine update: Russia can't maintain terrorist missile barrage, and their supporters are pissed

• Russia estimated to have spent 600 - 800 million on missile attack
• Many pro-russian mil-bloggers are struggling to justify the Russian strategy.
• Rather than the sustained onslaught those Russian nationalists demanded, Russia’s missile barrage had already lost steam by Tuesday, relying on its plentiful and cheap S-300 air-defense rockets, set to ground attack mode, and its increasing supply of cheap Iranian suicide drones. The former don’t have the range to penetrate deep into Ukrainian territory, and the latter lack the punch and have proven vulnerable to air defenses, depending on volume to allow a handful to slip through. Both weapons can kill civilians and demolish playgrounds, but Russia simply doesn’t have large stocks of its expensive heavy-hitting missiles to hit and seriously damage actual critical infrastructure targets. If they had those weapons, they would use them.

Ukraine Latest: NATO Chief Urges Increase in Air Defense Systems

• U.S. Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin said he expects allies who met in Brussels will come forward with more air defense capabilities for Ukraine after Kyiv renewed its pleas for such systems following Russia’s recent strikes on cities. The Biden administration is considering a complete ban on Russian aluminum -- long shielded from sanctions due to its importance in everything from automobiles and skyscrapers to iPhones -- in response to Russia’s military escalation in Ukraine.
• Russia has apparently depleted a significant portion of its precision-guided munitions because Moscow is increasingly using old Soviet munitions with indiscriminate precision on the battlefield, a senior NATO official said.

Neat interview on Europes geopolitical vulnerabilities since the end of the cold war - EU Geopolitical Muse Explains The Biggest Threat To The West And Democracy

Updated Russian losses - Russia’s ‘irrecoverable losses’ in Ukraine: more than 90,000 troops dead, disabled, or AWOL — Meduza

Ukraine shoots down four Russian helicopters in 18 minutes

Belarus army would likely have little impact in Ukraine war

 

“Ha-Ha! The invincible US military rained hell on sand monkeys. Twenty years and $two trillion later ... the goat herders chased them out. Ha-Ha!”

Well, isn’t that what some of you are projecting on Russia ?