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War in Ukraine

Discussion in 'Too Hot for Swamp Gas' started by PITBOSS, Jan 21, 2022.

  1. gogator7444

    gogator7444 GC Hall of Fame

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    Pretty much assume when they Russians say they hit a military target, there's a high probability it was actually a civilian one. The barracks notwithstanding.
     
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  2. tampagtr

    tampagtr VIP Member

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    . What are you referring to?

    If you are referring to hypersonic missiles, we were “behind”, but that was probably a good thing and I think it’s stupid that we’re trying to so-called catch up
     
  3. gogator7444

    gogator7444 GC Hall of Fame

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    :rolleyes:

    It's a good thing to be unable to defend against attacks? Well I stand corrected.
     
  4. carpeveritas

    carpeveritas GC Hall of Fame

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    Given today's society I expected no less.
     
  5. gogator7444

    gogator7444 GC Hall of Fame

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    It shouldn't be happening period. Russians themselves aren't to blame here, even less the artists & others who have taken a stance against the war at great peril to their careers & even lives.

    That said, this is far from the first time that's happened -- anti-German sentiment in WW1, WW2, anti-Japanese sentiment in WW2, calling french fries "Freedom fries", etc. Carmina Burana & other works not performed or vilified because Hitler enjoyed them/played works by Wagner etc in the camps.

    I get wanting to support Ukraine but erasing/censoring because the pieces are by Russians from waaaay before is just ignorant.
     
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  6. tampagtr

    tampagtr VIP Member

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    Let me explain better. If you were talking about defending against hypersonic attacks, that is somewhat of a point. I thought you were talking about developing our own hypersonic capability. We have, although we're behind. But hypersonic and other glide missiles and some of the other new advances or generally developed to evade US defenses. Our peer rivals don't have similar defensive capabilities so there's really no reason to develop a way to evade them, at least a high price way. We are ahead of them at modernizing our current missile capability.

    I'm not sure there are great countermeasures, although we may be working on them. But then again, I'm not sure that our prior defenses would be as effective as we would need them to be in a real war. That's why most people thought it was a big waste for China and Russia to go big into hypersonics. It was a waste of resources to address a gap that was more psychological than real.

    Also, at least the Russian nuclear powered hypersonic technology, which is supposed to let it glide all the way around the earth, is more deadly to those in its path and those had its target, as it spews radiation.

    At least today, it just doesn't seem like a good use of resources, more like a gee whiz wow thing
     
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  7. carpeveritas

    carpeveritas GC Hall of Fame

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    I saw it as more of a message to NATO and specifically the US to squelch any intent of getting further involved or delivering such technology to Ukraine. From my point of view Putin has made clear with one missile the capability of their armed force. As far as we know this is the only one that has been deployed and the question remains as to whether Putin will use more of these weapons. As of this moment everyone is content to let ground warfare play out. It may be a slow slog but make no mistake lines are being drawn and the latest development has certainly clarified where China stands on the issue.
    China's Vice Foreign Minister blames NATO for war in Ukraine
     
  8. duchen

    duchen VIP Member

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    EVIL
     
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  9. gogator7444

    gogator7444 GC Hall of Fame

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    Thank you for clarifying. Yes it was either/or...that if we didn't have or want hypersonics for the reasons you mentioned, that we at least had the capabilities to defend against them or any other attacks. If they're out there, just because we think it may be a waste if resources it doesn't mean that we shouldn't be prepared to have someone else think it's worthwhile to flex & use them on us.

    Should we have them if someone else does? It'd be nice. Should we be able to defend? Absolutely. I'm not an engineer so no clue how you would but maybe it's time to bring back the Star Wars/rail gun/whatever the heck they were working on for space defense.
     
  10. gogator7444

    gogator7444 GC Hall of Fame

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    That argument got damaged by the Russians themselves saying they wanted a new world, & Ukraine having said they're willing to be neutral. Heck if it was NATOs fault they would've admitted Ukraine...but instead left Ukraine on its own, so if anything NATO wants nothing to do with this.

    China is certainly sitting on that fence.
     
  11. carpeveritas

    carpeveritas GC Hall of Fame

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    I agree it shouldn't be happening but when you have a society bent on cancel culture and a government that goes after Russian citizens and their assets I expected no less.

    As if pouring vodka down the drain would have any affect on the war between Russia and Ukraine neither will the elimination or censorship of the arts. I'll bet whoever owns these isn't burning them. Putting the general populace into a feeding frenzy on the other hand only adds to the justification of government actions no matter how deplorable they may be.

    Most Expensive Paintings By Russian Artists
     
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  12. gogator7444

    gogator7444 GC Hall of Fame

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    And I get where you're coming from, but to blame it on today's society may not be the best considering there are examples from other generations/decades ago of this behavior.

    Short of declaring full on war, sanctions are the only way to bring Putin down - with the Russians saying enough hopefully & taking him out themselves.
     
  13. tampagtr

    tampagtr VIP Member

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    From my limited understanding, and I'll say that I'm relying at least 80% on Jeffrey Lewis at the Monterey institute and his various podcasts and books, there is no real way to defend within any conceivable limitation of current understanding of physics from a barrage of ICBMs. We really have not come up with a better idea than MAD. And we abrogated unilaterally the ABM treaty. But our peer rivals seem to think we are more capable than most experts think we actually are and feel like they have to invest incredible resources to try to make sure that we cannot stop all of their ICBMs, when we couldn't anyway.

    I will say that while I trust Lewis after following him for over a decade and reading a lot of supporting documentation, it does seem incongruous that our rivals would spend so much to overcome defenses that are not as robust as they seem to think. But I still think that while we have sufficient defenses to deter smaller powers, we don't to deter any significant power.

    And then there's the issues brought up by Kaplan's The Bomb, about decades of declassified Nuclear Posture Reviews, and the fact that success of US leaders have all reached the conclusion that it would be utter madness to ever actually use a nuclear weapon. I could write thousands more words on this, but that's kind of where I was coming from
     
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  14. carpeveritas

    carpeveritas GC Hall of Fame

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    In some sense of the word it has been revived with the creation of the Space Force in 2019. What a field day the press and media has with that one. Think how far we would be along had President Reagan got his wish. I still remember the howls of ray gun (Reagan).

    I'll take a stab at your whatever they were working on and assume this is what you are aiming at.
    Laser Weapons in Space Will Shoot Down Missiles
    Space-based anti-missile laser weapons calls many military possibilities to mind. After all, there are already different lasers built, some more often discussed than others. For instance, is well known that lasers are being explored for intercontinental ballistic missile (ICBM) defense in space. Moreover, the Missile Defense Agency officials tell The National Interest that weapons developers are now working on “power-scaling” laser systems to engineer weapons strong enough to incinerate enemy missiles in space. This not only requires range but also power systems sufficient to generate the desired effects.

    You might find this article of some value.
    How Rail Guns Work
     
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  15. carpeveritas

    carpeveritas GC Hall of Fame

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    Regardless of one's point of view concerning the argument it makes no sense for either side to ignore it. It must be discussed otherwise things will not change.
    Let's not forget while these conversations were happening with regard to Ukraine's request to become part of NATO and the Eurozone the powers that be were only to happy to take advantage of the corruption and the money that flowed endlessly. Why would they let Ukraine join in the first place? In order to keep things as they were my opinion is this was a carrot that was never intended to happen. Why? It would mean getting rid of the corruption as well as implementing oversight and audits. That carrot among other things was the last straw from Putin's point of view.
     
  16. carpeveritas

    carpeveritas GC Hall of Fame

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    Given past history I can agree with that statement. The major difference is the US was at war during those periods of time. What makes today different is the global / national capability of information dissemination coupled with the public's ability of interaction. Virtue signaling, ESG (environmental, social and governance), DEI (diversity, equity, inclusion) and proclaiming to the world one's compliance while shaming and canceling others has a lot to do with today's mental state of affairs.
     
  17. gogator7444

    gogator7444 GC Hall of Fame

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    Cnn

    "Zelensky: ‘If we were a NATO member, a war wouldn't have started’

    CNN's Chandelis Duster

    Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky said Sunday that if his country had been admitted into the North Atlantic Treaty Organization alliance earlier, then Russia would not have invaded the country.

    “If we were a NATO member, a war wouldn't have started. I'd like to receive security guarantees for my country, for my people,” Zelensky told CNN’s Fareed Zakaria on “GPS,” adding that he was grateful for the aid NATO has provided since the invasion began. “If NATO members are ready to see us in the alliance, then do it immediately because people are dying on a daily basis.”

    He continued, “But if you are not ready to preserve the lives of our people, if you just want to see us straddle two worlds, if you want to see us in this dubious position where we don't understand whether you can accept us or not — you cannot place us in this situation, you cannot force us to be in this limbo.”

    "I requested them personally to say directly that we are going to accept you into NATO in a year or two or five, just say it directly and clearly, or just say no," Zelensky said. "And the response was very clear, you're not going to be a NATO member, but publicly, the doors will remain open," he said."
     
  18. gogator7444

    gogator7444 GC Hall of Fame

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    Cnn live

    "Russian attack killed 56 elderly residents of a care home in eastern Ukraine, says regional official

    From CNN staff

    Fifty-six elderly residents of a care home in the eastern Ukrainian town of Kreminna were killed when a Russian tank opened fire on a care home, according to the head of the Luhansk region.

    Serhii Haidai said the attack happened nine days ago, on March 11, and that fifteen other residents of the care home had been abducted and taken to the town of Svatove in what is now Russian-occupied territory.

    Haidai first reported the attack in a video statement posted to Twitter on March 12 but said at the time he had no information on casualties, indicating Ukrainian emergency services and officials had come under fire when they tried to gain access the area.

    “[Russian forces] opened fire on a nursing home for elderly people with a tank. There were only elderly people living there, many of them with disabilities. We have no idea how many people have died and how many survived. When we tried to reach the scene, they started shelling us,” he said on March 12. "
     
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  19. gogator7444

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    Cnn live...he fully realizes Putin will never be reasonable

    "Putin's claims of neo-Nazis in Ukraine show he "might be capable of very horrendous steps," Zelensky says

    President Zelensky was asked about Vladimir Putin's claims that the Ukrainian government is full of neo-Nazis. He said that he cannot take these statements by Putin "seriously" and called it "laughable."

    Zelensky added that Putin is in an information bubble but he noted that remarks like this from the Russian president worry him about what he is capable of.

    "I'm not afraid of anything except for people, but the fact -- the fact is that if he is serious about this statement he might be capable of very horrendous steps because that would mean that this is not a game for him. If he really believes in this, if it's not a game, then we will just continue fighting against it. If it's a game. But if it's not a game, if he's serious about it, if he thinks that this is his mission to conquer our territory and if he sees signs of neo-Nazis in our country, then many questions emerge about what else he is capable of doing for the sake of his ambitions, for the sake of his mission." "
     
  20. uftaipan

    uftaipan GC Hall of Fame

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    Nah, nah, nah, man. There are, like, Nazis in Ukraine left over from WW2. They just never left. And if you start asking questions, such as, “Wouldn’t the youngest of them be in their 90s?” well, then, you’re a Nazi, too!
     
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