War in Ukraine

We recently passed a massive infrastructure bill, you potato.

 

Thank you, okeydokie, for explaining the ignorance of the hard-right republican position with such clarity!

What you fail to understand is that our economic position as the world's leading economy is based on something called "free trade". Free trade is not possible when other world powers gobble up their neighbors to build their empires. Our position as a global economic leader is also based on NOT HAVING a world full of oppressed people pissed off at us for eating cake while they starve--which leads to events like 9-11, which leads us to spend a massive amount of money being a police state. I know it seems like fun for a right-winger to live in a police state (until the police come for you), but it is not economically functional.

The simple-minded people on the far right draw a straight line for our economy as if it will progress as it has the last 50-60 years irrelevant of what happens globally, but I assure you that it is not the case. The new Hitler is on the prowl, and the events that unfold could easily upend the global economy (and ours with it). Before you say something ignorant like Putin is not the new Hitler, try to remember that Hitler started small with the Poland invasion, which Poland tried to fight with cavalry soldiers on horseback against tanks and aircraft.

So before you decide whether we can afford roads and support for Ukraine, try to think about whether we can afford to let Ukraine fail. Then ask yourself if you are gullible enough to believe that Putin will stop with Ukraine (he's already lining up Moldova and other neighbors as his next victims).

Furthermore, the support for Ukraine is a tiny fraction of the $700-800 billion we spend on national defense every year. The value of the investment in Ukraine is about 10X greater than normal defense spending as they are putting the weapons to good use against our enemies NOW, as opposed to stockpiling weapons that eventually get retired and put in warehouses. We still need to prepare to defend ourselves, but paying Ukraine to defeat our enemies is a far, far better investment.

Don't feel bad. You are not alone. There were millions of ignorant Americans that opposed U.S. intervention in WWII before Pearl Harbor.

 

Another thing to remember is that after a great victory against a world power (and U.S. enemy), the U.S. economy goes into overdrive. It happened in the 1920's, again in the 1950's, and again in the 1990's. No superpower enemy to worry about = less money spent on defense = more money spent on education and other things that drive our economy. Ever hear of the interstate highway system (1950's)? Ever hear of the internet (1990's)? Those things actually happened. And they would not have happened without the defeat of our superpower enemy.

 

Maybe it is MORE illustrative of what a country can do with material support from the U.S. Russia would be lucky to slow down the Nazi advance on Moscow, much less reverse it and fight their way to Berlin, without all of the equipment sent from the United States. Stalin, who probably knew better than anyone else what the score was, openly admitted that he would not have been able to defeat Germany without all of the U.S. assistance.

If my first statement is correct (which it is), then we should be sending more support to Ukraine, and not less.

 

The U.S. sent a total of $180 billion (in today dollars) worth of equipment to the USSR from 1941 to 1945. That's less than what the U.S. has already given to Ukraine and Ukraine isn't fighting the Wehrmacht. The Lend-Lease changes nothing about my statement. Russia was able to overpower Nazi Germany with manpower and grit. Even as the Allies were reclaiming France, Hitler had 80% of his units on the Eastern front. The allies were in a footrace to Berlin and the Russians won. And the obvious problem of attempting to occupy a behemoth country like Russia. The Eastern front was doomed for Nazi Germany with or without Lend-Lease. Many of Hitler's high command begged him not to invade the USSR, before Lend-Lease was even a thing.

 

Meaning we’re only decades away from completing passenger rail lines to compare to third world countries, cauliflour.

 

People demonize modern-day Russia while cheering on the heirs to a famous Nazi collaborator.

 

Totally untrue. Germany made it to the edge of Moscow, for crying out loud. Russia had tanks functioning in winter, while the Wehrmacht did not. This might be surprising, considering that Germany had far better tanks than Russia. The U.S. provided Russia with a new invention called synthetic oil, which allowed Russian tanks to operate in winter. Russian troops also had fur-lined shoes, thanks to the U.S. Russia also had hundreds of thousands of U.S.-made trucks, which made logistics much easier, which any general will tell you is one of the keys to winning a war. Manpower and grit only gets you so far in a war. No doubt, Poland had a fair amount of manpower and grit, but it didn't do them any good, and they were overrun in a few weeks. Technology and supplies go a long way towards winning a war.

I don't know what makes you think you know more than Joseph Stalin about what would have happened to Russia without U.S. aid, but I tend to believe Stalin over you, considering how often you are wrong about things and considering how much closer to the actual war Stalin was.

 

Ukraine claims to have destroyed an Su-57 jet for the first time, taking out one of Russia's latest and greatest jets. A Russian pro-military blogger confirmed the jet was destroyed. Serial production of the jet began in 2022.

Ukraine says latest-generation Russian fighter jet hit for first time (yahoo.com)

 

Old news. The jet was on the ground and not in use. Also, Russia has confirmed it. So not just a Ukrainian claim. Glad you’re keeping up.

 

A little history lesson on how the Germans became so good at war in the 19th century, and how that carried over into WWII. They developed a game called Kriegspiel that was based on chess (which was based on a game developed in India) with dice rolls to include probability of advancing on an enemy square. There were 1617 squares in the game. It was apparently fairly realistic for its time. By WWII, German generals were routinely using this game to simulate upcoming warfare. Hitler hated this game. Results of the game convinced Hitler not to invade Czechoslovakia in 1938 because the German economy was too weak. German captain Erich von Manstein convinced Hitler to accept the game when it concluded that his daring cut through France would work, as Hitler liked bold strategies.

The German board game that changed the face of war (yahoo.com)

 

Some of you regard him a hero …

 

Russia appears to have opened up another front north of Sumy. The Sumy region is without electricity. This may or may not become a large-scale operation, but you'll see that it's a considerable distance north of Sumy proper. This feels a lot like the Russians closing the curtains on the Kyiv regime. You can attempt to poke holes in it all you wish, but the Russians feely frisky enough to open up multiple fronts along the border does not portend a military in the throes of defeat or one that's concerned about more Western weapons.

 

Yet another prediction of inevitable victory, just like at Odesa and Kharkiv.

 

Russians are cherry picking their spots at this point. I think the Sumy front is a feint. They want to advance on Kharkov, Kherson and Odesa though. Not a prediction. It’s just that one side is clearly calling the shots.

 

Yeah, wise to get ahead of that one in case it, too, fails bloodily.

Getting ahead of yourself using the Russian names for Ukrainian cities, aren’t you? Go on and tell us that was an accident.

 

https://archive.ph/V2Rll

Interesting article of how Russia seems to be thriving in its own way during the war. Overall the population supports the effort and weirdly it gives everybody a purpose.

 

On Kharkiv …

Putin: “We do not intend to take Kharkiv.”

NAFOids: “Liar! You wanted to take Kharkiv and you failed!”

Me: “Actually, it appears to have been a roaring success, for Russia, with Ukraine having to strip elite brigades from every front, allowing Russia to advance in Chasov Yar, Ochertino, Avdeevka and a dozen over axes while continuing to chew through Ukraine’s human strength.”

NAFOids: “La-La-La! We can’t hear you!!!”

 

Sounds like Americans during WWII which was not an existential conflict for Americans.

 

more sams taken out. Russia can't have many left and they seem to have no answer for the himars/atacms taking them out. I guess we will find out how many they have left when air operations start over Crimea. buyers of those expensive sams systems may be having second thoughts about now. just another benefit of supplying aid to ukraine. field test our systems...degrade enemy confidence in theirs

Ukraine hit Russian S-400, S-300 systems in occupied Crimea overnight, General Staff says (msn.com)

Ukrainian forces attacked Russian S-400 and S-300 anti-aircraft missile systems in several areas in occupied Crimea overnight on June 10, Ukraine's General Staff said. The statement came after a series of explosions were reported in the peninsula at night.

One S-400 anti-aircraft missile unit was hit near Dzhankoi, and two more S-300 anti-aircraft missile units were attacked near occupied Chornomorske and Yevpatoria, according to the military.

The radars of the systems reportedly stopped working "immediately" after the strikes. "None of our missiles fired were intercepted by the enemy's 'highly effective' air defense," the General Staff said.

"In addition, further detonations of ammunition were observed in all three areas of the launching positions of the Russian anti-aircraft missile divisions."