Uh oh. Another trans thread

Yes, I should be clear. I don't think social transition itself psychologically harms transgender kids. I certainly can see bullying, abuse, or harassment harming them. But it's not as if refusing to let them transition resolves the harm issue. It doesn't. It's like saying 25 years ago that allowing teenagers to identify as gay harms them because their peers will bully them and their parents will disown them, so we should force them to stay in the closet.

 

Children cannot consent to puberty blockers, much less genital mutilation.

 

It doesn't give me pause. The UK is governed by transphobic right-wingers. Ron DeSantis outlawing gender-affirming care also doesn't give me pause. There are numerous studies from reputable researchers demonstrating the efficacy of gender-affirming care. The idea that we need double-blind studies to satisfy right-wingers in the UK is just nuts. Think for a minute about what that means practically. How are you supposed to have a double-blind study when you're dealing with suffering minors who want gender-affirming care?

The comment about "performing bottom surgery on a 13 year old" is more disingenuous bullshit. It's like when Republican politicians talk about "post-birth abortions."

As for dismissing the "continued research" on the effectiveness of gender-affirming care, it sure isn't difficult for folks on your side of the issue to dismiss it. The insidiousness of what you propose is that refusing to grant minors access to this care isn't some neutral outcome. It will result in more kids dying. Imagine if you tried to do that with pediatric cancer. "Well, there's just not robust enough 'high-quality' research about the benefits of the treatments these doctors are proposing, so we propose that we do nothing until we have better research." Doing nothing causes harm.

 

SSDD. They're "concerned" for these troubled youths while supporting efforts to legally force them to comply with "what we random strangers think is best for you (i.e. more palatable for us)."

They're "concerned" for inflation harming the younger generations while opposing any Democrat policy that tries to actually give a financial break to younger generations. (also while denigrating and demeaning the younger generations as being inferior to their romanticized versions of their own generations).

They're "concerned" for aborted babies while opposing virtually all government efforts to actually support those children born into situations where no one wants to or can care for them.*



*Some anti-abortion folks (Tilly) seem to legitimately care about supporting these unwanted or impoverished babies, but they seem to be the minority based on the GOP agenda.

 

And if we're going to talk about this ridiculous Cass Report, it's worth pointing out that they still couldn't demonstrate significant rates of detransition!

 

Hillary Cass w

Hillary Cass was the president of the Royal college of Pediatrics in the UK, and was appointed to this task by the NHS. She’s not just some hack. I see she has written papers on autism. You always profess to want to follow the science but as soon as it doesn’t fit into your preferred social Justice narrative you not only dismiss it you attack it.

Your motivation is you have adult trans friends, as if that has anything to do with the treatment of trans adolescents. How much experience to you have with adolescents with mental illness?

I perused the summary and it was mostly common sense, and the main conclusion was these kids were getting inadequate treatment resources and they should be treated holistically just like any other patient. The main conclusion was not what the OP asserted, nor was it that only some small percent detransition (whatever that means)

In one of the appendices it did reiterate that about 75% of these patients are now teenage biological females. This contrasts from a decade ago when the majority were younger boys. So why the sudden change, and why are 3/4 female?

It also stated that a majority of the patients had characteristics of autism and/or ADHD.

From what I have seen through my kids acquaintances there is little doubt in my mind that a large part of this, for minors, is mental illness, manifesting itself as gender dysphoria. Social media amplifies this stuff too. I hear my autistic son (young adult now) constantly talking about trans/ non binary, etc. It’s all over the place.

As to adults, I don’t really have an opinion either way. My assumption would be that at some point in adulthood, if you feel trans you probably are. Most adults that are now trans likely came to this prior to the current hysteria over the issue…on both sides.

It is possible for some people to actually care about this from a medical and healthcare perspective, and not a political one. It strikes me that you and some of the trans obsessed righties here are two sides of the same coin. It is culture war issue for you, and you feel you must righteously fight for social Justice.

 

https://archive.ph/KK7CR

In a world without partisan politics, the Cass report on youth gender medicine would prompt serious reflection from American trans-rights activists, their supporters in the media, and the doctors and institutions offering hormonal and surgical treatments to minors. At the request of the English National Health Service, the senior pediatrician Hilary Cass has completed the most thorough consideration yet of this field, and her report calmly and carefully demolishes many common activist tropes. Puberty blockers do have side effects, Cass found. The evidence base for widely used treatments is “shaky.” Their safety and effectiveness are not settled science.
The report drew on extensive interviews with doctors, parents, and young people, as well as on a series of new, systematic literature reviews. Its publication marks a decisive turn away from the affirmative model of treatment, in line with similar moves in other European countries. What Cass’s final document finds, largely, is an absence. “The reality is that we have no good evidence on the long-term outcomes of interventions to manage gender-related distress,” Cass writes. We also don’t have strong evidence that social transitioning, such as changing names or pronouns, affects adolescents’ mental-health outcomes (either positively or negatively). We don’t have strong evidence that puberty blockers are merely a pause button, or that their benefits outweigh their downsides, or that they are lifesaving care in the sense that they prevent suicides. We don’t know why the number of children turning up at gender clinics rose so dramatically during the 2010s, or why the demographics of those children changed from a majority of biological males to a majority of biological females. Neither “born that way” nor “it’s all social contagion” captures the complexity of the picture, Cass writes.
What Cass does feel confident in saying is this: When it comes to alleviating gender-related distress, “for the majority of young people, a medical pathway may not be the best way to achieve this.” That conclusion will now inform the creation of new state-provided services in England. These will attempt to consider patients more holistically, acknowledging that their gender distress might be part of a picture that also includes anxiety, autism, obsessive-compulsive disorder, eating disorders, or past trauma.
This is a million miles away from prominent American medical groups’ recommendation to simply affirm an adolescent’s stated gender—and from common practice at American gender clinics. For example, a Reuters investigation found that, of 18 U.S. clinics surveyed, none conducted the lengthy psychological assessments used by Dutch researchers who pioneered the use of medical gender treatments in adolescents; some clinics prescribe puberty blockers or hormones during a patient’s first visit. Under pressure from its members, the American Academy of Pediatrics last year commissioned its own evidence review, which is still in progress. But at the same time, the group restated its 2018 commitment to the medical model.

 

Cass dismissed around 98% of the studies in certain areas of gender-affirming care while conducting her review because it didn't meet an arbitrary (and impossible) threshold she set. We're not talking about junk studies from some guy in his mother's garage. We're talking about accomplished researchers and reputable medical journals. Cass cherry-picked the "science" she wanted.

Hell, Joseph Ladapo is a well-credentialed doctor too. Not only that, he's the Surgeon General of Florida! That means he can't be hackish on issues, right?

Is Cass as bad as Ladapo? No. Is her entire report unreasonable or untrustworthy? No. Is it the sort of fair and objective report we should have gotten? IMO, no. If you're interested in a thorough critique of the Cass Report that is replete with citations to studies, you can read this:
Response to the Cass Review

My motivation is that there's robust evidence supporting gender-affirming care and demonstrating that absent it, children are more likely to die. The benefit of having adult trans friends is being able to put these issues into perspective. It's not just some abstract idea.

I'm glad the ideas you agree with are "common sense." Worth considering a different perspective on the issue:
The British government is throwing young trans people under the bus

Is it a sudden change? You've offered two data points that are a decade apart. I don't know why the demographics are different now than they were ten years ago. I also don't know what the demographics were ten years before that.

But according to this study, this is not a new trend. The demographic change has been steadily happening over 20+ years. The authors offer some insights on why. The one that had previously occurred to me was that there was less social stigmatization for women adopting masculine characteristics (think "butch lesbians"), which made it easier for FTM transgender people to live in the closet when there was greater stigma towards the LGBTQ+ community.
Changing Demographics in Transgender Individuals Seeking Hormonal Therapy: Are Trans Women More Common Than Trans Men?

Quite a statement. Glad you've found a way to "both sides" this issue. Thing is, these shifts you're talking about occurred before the "current hysteria." They occurred as stigma towards the LGBTQ+ community dropped. Indeed, that is partially what led to the "current hysteria."

Additionally, you ignore the most damning evidence for the argument you're trying to make. Detransition rates are very low!

Phenomenal, the reactionary "centrist" POV. Just like when the white supremacists and civil rights activists were two sides of the same coin. It was the "rational moderates" who were there to ensure that "both sides" didn't go too far. Gotta slow down those folks fighting for equality. Wouldn't want them to overstep. Need to wait for a more convenient season.

 

My shocked face …

Landmark Study Reveals 'Transgender' Kids Actually Have Other Mental Health Diagnoses | ZeroHedge

 

Yeah exactly this. Men have definitely not been treating women poorly until transgender became a rallying cry of the right.

 

Wow, that’s a thoughtful take. If you can’t see that the policy led to this then it’s no use actually having an adult conversation about this.

 

So if we know this historical fact, why would anyone support new policies that encourage men to exploit women?
Libbies are the anti-woman
Party.

 

This is longer than last time you posted it.

 

How about this. There is more sexual assault because there are more women. And more is being reported because keeping silent is no longer expected. The military has a problem with the chain of command and sexual assault but I am confident the military will be figure it out.

Oops I forgot what thread I was in. I am leaving this here because the military has this issue and I am confident they will work it out. On the civilian side shining a light on rapists activities will hopefully reduce it or get more incarcerated. Don’t know if anything can prevent a serial rapist but the date rapers an acquaintance rapers I hope we shrink under light.

 

This is not a social Justice issue to me. It is a medical issue. I’ll go where the evidence leads. If it can be demonstrated that gender affirming care leads to positive outcomes, and there is a scientifically tested protocol for implementation I’m all for it. It seems to me the evidence is at best mixed. Before one implements a significant physically and mentally altering therapy I’d prefer there be better evidence that it actually helps.

 

This assertion is important because it is repeated, a lot. But as I understand it, there is no solid evidence to support it. The Cass rebuttal you posted listed studies that purport to support it. One is a study of 47 subjects, and the “suicidality scores” after 3 months of treatment were lower. That doesn’t mean there were less suicides or attempts over a long term.

The second was a larger cross sectional study and somewhat more compelling with lower odds ratios of .74 and .62 of seriously considering suicide and suicide attempt in the past year among those receiving hormonal treatment. But again not actual suicides.

The final was all 18+ surveying their perceptions of the past based upon whether they received puberty blockers or not, and those that did reported lower suicidal ideation.

While these are all suggestive of less potential suicide, to varying degrees they aren’t solid evidence of actual suicide rates.

As a parent of a teen / now young adult who has tried to kill herself at least twice, and are good friends of a son the same age who succeeded, while preventing suicide attempts is certainly part of it, the bigger goal is to try help them live a more successful, happy and productive life. While they definitely overlap they aren’t exactly the same thing.

So does it make sense to give hormones and puberty blockers, so that kids may think less about suicide? It depends on the amount of harm the treatments may do vs the actual long term benefits. None of those studies really address that.

At some level is isn’t surprising that children who identify as trans, will feel better if their feelings/beliefs are affirmed. That in itself doesn’t necessarily make the intervention appropriate.

 

I always liked first do no harm. I think adults can do whatever they want children need adults to help with decisions but it is above my pay grade how you do this.

 

Of course it isn't. Your rights aren't under attack. Your equal liberty in our society isn't threatened. You aren't being forced into a second class of citizenship. You have nothing on the line. You have no skin in the game.

Will you? Or will you go to only where some of the evidence leads because it confirms your priors?

Where? Where is the evidence "mixed"? And what does "mixed" mean to you? Detransition rates are low. Regret rates are low. Numerous studies have found the efficacy of gender-affirming care. The major medical associations in our country are fully behind it. It strikes me that folks like you are constantly looking for reasons to doubt the consensus and the weight of the evidence. You're entitled to your skepticism, but you're not entitled to your own facts.

You'll need to define for us what "solid evidence" is.
Mental Health Outcomes in Transgender and Nonbinary Youths Receiving Gender-Affirming Care - PubMed
https://www.jahonline.org/article/S1054-139X(21)00568-1/fulltext
Hormone Therapy, Suicidal Risk, and Transgender Youth in the United States - American Economic Association
https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/wp-content/uploads/Suicidality-Transgender-Sep-2019.pdf
Association Between Gender-Affirming Surgeries and Mental Health Outcomes
A systematic review of psychosocial functioning changes after gender-affirming hormone therapy among transgender people
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/joim.13441
Pubertal Suppression for Transgender Youth and Risk of Suicidal Ideation
What does the scholarly research say about the effect of gender transition on transgender well-being? | What We Know

I don't think anybody will say that we know everything. We need to continue to study these issues (the effectiveness of treatments, the effectiveness of alternatives, and the risks of treatments and alternatives). But we have a lot of "solid" evidence that points towards the effectiveness of gender-affirming care, including at lowering the risk of suicide attempts.

There's a lot we can and must learn. There's a lot of work still needed. But it disappoints me when people misrepresent the amount and quality of the evidence we have now.

 

I'll also say that my understanding is that Cass didn't include narratives from the transgender minors (and adults) who received care and had positive experiences in her report. Is that understanding incorrect? If not, explain to me why their experiences and personal narratives aren't extremely relevant here.