The Inconvenient Truth of Palestine

Understood. But I also remember Charlottesville and everything the government did to break up those assemblies once it turned from a historian’s protest to protect monuments into a gathering of (actual) white supremacists that of course drew in counterprotesters and turned violent. I remember clearly Governor McAullife going on television and angrily telling them to leave. I have seen no such visible display of disgust from our elected leaders in this case.

 

There is and has been a de facto Palestine exception to the First Amendment in our society and it is being rigorously applied to all messages in support. It’s just slightly less immediate and visible

 

If they are in Gaza, yes, an ogre squad would be very appropriate. However, I don’t think you can hold Hamas accountable for terms that they cannot control, such as IRGC personnel outside of Hamas’ physical grasp.

 

Not rambling. I see what you're getting at.

Anti-Semitism is a plague that must be confronted wherever and whenever it rears its ugly head. How otoh is a matter for debate. Given an all too familiar & depressing history, I get the impetus that underlies calls for Hamas being immediately destroyed. Same time, if in the rush to destroy Hamas, this will knowingly lead to countless deaths of innocent civilians, I can't view such deaths as merely being collateral damage out of some necessity or greater good.

This above is my questioning the need for war--not questioning the immense pain from the shocking horror of Oct 7th. Still, I don't believe it's unfair to ask what if Israel didn't immediately strike back? Would they be in any more danger? Might there be some benefit in restraint that allows for clearer thinking to prevail?

 

Truth. Social media is wild right now.

 

Muzzle at the north end and butt plate at the south? I think I see it. Interesting metaphor.

 

You know what, and perhaps I’m showing my naïveté again, but “the Ukraine” hasn’t bothered me because I heard it as a kid. Having been born and spent time as a kid in NW Ontario where there is a good number of Polish-Ukrainians, I recall hearing it on occasion and it was spoken by Polish and Ukrainian immigrants. The Poles and Ukrainians both have been suppressed by Russia in their histories, and at least some of the folks my family knew/knows up there left their homelands after such treatment. They had/have no reason to be Russia-centric. My DNA includes a heaping helping of Polish-Ukrainian, too. Methinks, but cannot prove, that maybe “the Ukraine” has been usurped like many other terms/words that used to actually be more innocent.

 

Sort of what I was getting at. OP wanted to express their perspective but didn't care about responses. Posting in the other thread might have not garnered the audience he was looking for so I'll start a thread instead.

Not significant for most I imagine but to me it screams these are the facts and I'm not interested in discussion.

 

“The” Ukraine is a Russian expression to imply that it is a just a regional area of Russia, as we might refer to the South or the Midwest. When Ukraine tried (unsuccessfully) to assert independence after WW1 and again (successfully) after the Cold War, one of their points of order was to stop people referring to Ukraine as “the” Ukraine just as no one refers to “the” Poland.

 

Wouldn’t be surprised if facial recognition tech is being employed to register who the protesters are.

 

I would be surprised if anything at all is being done.

 

I appreciate the separate thread just because it’s the sole Palestinian perspective on the board. But I do wish he stuck around and replied some.

 

Thx, but I understand why/how Russia intends it to be understood and why Ukrainians would dislike the term in these times. If the desired discontinuance of the use of the term is post-cold war, then that is understandable. My experience hearing it used by Poles and Ukrainians was back in the ‘60s, and although I was young, it wasn’t used disparagingly back then.

Now back to the ME discussion.

 

If you mean that our govt only worries about right-wing wackos, you just might be right.

 

There is an argument, which is logical but is pure abstraction because no state can not strike back and be legitimate, that Israel is playing into a trap that will hurt them. Many versions of it out there. We kind of fell into a trap that ultimately weakened us after 9/11

 

There is no good side in this conflict. Until the international community is willing to step in and separate the two sides it won't end.

Israel has much better PR and way more lobbyists, but that doesn't make them the good guys here.

 

I hear you. I know it is an abstraction. Intentional perhaps.

I question the rationality of war even if I'm more or less resigned to war being what we humans have always done and at least in modern times under somewhat of a pretense of necessity while claiming to respect life.

I don't think of Israel or the US as having fallen into traps as much as faiap powerless entities using terrorism and sporadic attacks against the powerful.

 

In a sense, I think you are correct. The only long-term solutions are:

1. Israel ethnically cleansing its territory of Muslims from one end to the other, just as the Russians did with the eastern parts of Germany at the end of WW2. Resettle all Muslims into Muslim lands. Relocate or destroy all Islamic holy sites (yes, including and especially the Al-Aqsa Mosque; leveled or moved with respect to wherever the Muslims want it). You would have a generation of grief and outrage, but in time a “Palestinian” would be like a “Prussian,” kind of used to be a thing but not really a thing anymore.

2. A four-state solution enforced by the international community. Gaza goes back to Egypt. The West Bank gets divided along defensible geographical lines. One part goes to Israel, and all of the Muslims leave; the other part goes to Jordan, and all of the Jews leave. The Golan goes back to Syria, policed by the UN, off limits to Syrian forces, and all Jews return to Israel. The Old City of Jerusalem becomes an international city, policed by the UN. Again, the term “Palestinian” is eliminated from our vocabulary. The Arab countries welcome their new people as Egyptians, Jordanians, or Syrians without distinction, including and especially the refugees who have been sitting in camps for 70 years.

Huge problems with both solutions, but both have the benefit of being sustainable to the existing Jewish state and Arab states. The current situation will inevitably lead to the destruction of Israel in the long run. At some point, I assure you all that two things will happen concurrently: 1. The U.S. will lose the ability and/or will to guarantee Israel’s security; and 2. The Arab states will lose the artificial distinctions between themselves and become a single, powerful Arab state that is capable of overrunning Israel. These events are a question of when, not if. There is a reason that Jewish states have only occurred for short periods with long interludes over the course of history. Maybe a rules-based order can prolong that this time. Maybe not.

 

Here are some that at least on a quick read seem to make the same point. Some of them I've only scanned so I don't want to endorse them completely