The Inconvenient Truth of Palestine

Just think it may indicate they aren't interested in a discussion.

Of course there are many possible reasons they haven't returned but speaking for myself, if I took the time to formulate such an opening I'd want to respond to a number of the arguments made. It's a relatively constructive thread for too hot. Absent are most of the drive by snarks from the usual suspects.

 

What is the difference now in the two threads? I thought the other was war updates and this one on the historical plight of Palestinians and Jews but now there are war updates in here.

 

In Israel, particularly at religious schools, kids live at the schools. And they are there on Shabbat and some holidays. Those schools are closed Sukkot through the 8th day. They may not have realized the latter.

 

. Yeh. Sure. Propaganda. Because Hamas didn’t target civilians, holes or children. Oh, wait…

 

this is the thread for everyone who has Rick on ignore.

 

The UN is preoccupied with Israel. More than any country in the world. It is reflective of a Jew hating world. Have you noticed the countries who lead the UN Human Rights Committees? The current borders are armistice lines. When the ceasefires were declared in 1973, these were the borders (Sinai has since been returned to Egypt). Subject to negotiation, Israel’s presence is legal -And Jordan has abandoned the West Bank. Under international law, Israel’s presence is legal, no matter how many resolutions the UN lasers. It is impossible for Israel to be the occupier of another nations lands when that nation has never existed and the nation that was there abandoned the land. After 1970, when the Palestinians throws to overthrow King Hussein, Jordan doesn’t want that land back. There has never been a nation of Palestine.

 

That a why I suggested merging the the threads at the beginning. I think updates abound be in the other thread so we don’t have to go to two places.

 

If you like. Whatever of form of human being it takes you to realize that, gosh, not all human life is sacred. And, of course, I’m referring strictly to Hamas, not to the noncombatants behind whom Hamas will try to hide.

I think, for instance, about all of these pro-Hamas (however they want to characterize them, that’s what they are) demonstrations going on all around our country. I think to myself, we can’t find creative legal means to shut these down? And people gasp, but we have the right to assemble, how can you? And I think, well, if these were (actual) white supremacists out there celebrating the organized rape, murder, and pillage of black people, then, yeah, we would figure out a way if for no other reason than to mitigate future violence. We would go after their funding, the government would be telling them to go home, that they weren’t wanted, and there would be no sympathy for their right to assemble. Never mind the public shaming.

 

Judge favorably. Maybe the OP is busy. And the OP- like everyone else who filled this— knows that this has hurt the cause for peace. Let’s assume Israel makes a deal with the PA for swig governance of Arab areas of Israel. They had unilaterally turned Gaza over to the PA. The PA was voted out and then a coup occurred and Hamas completely controlled Gaza. And rhe PAs stated aim is no peace. So, what assurance would Israel have that it would not happen again?

 

And may also be pained reading responses

 

Unfortunately, it’s not a crime and punishment model. It’s war. Hams set up their rocket launchers and bas of operations in Gaza City. They did not establish bases south of there away from the civilian population. They count on the world to be horrified by the dead children a and innocents in Gaza and to decry a “disproportionate” response. It is already happening because good people are compassionate. And the people who hate Jews and Israel are more than happy to condemn and criticize. But, in order to destroy large, spread out launch sites (which are mobile), storage of missiles and munitions, the areas where they are located have to be destroyed. Not to mention the places where terrorists live. And those areas are all over a city. That’s the reality Israel faces. People demand precision bombing, but when rockets or motions are located under a ten story building, what then? Precision bombing will lead to collateral damage. And, of course, there are errors. That isn’t the reality that Israel is confronted with

 

Killing women and children doesn't have to be the goal. However, it will be the predictable outcome in bombing the hell out of Gaza, an outcome that suggests a much more callous indifference than many are willing to believe.

 

That is a Marty Peretz level argument, and that’s not a good thing. Also used against Kurds and so many minorities, and is derivative of dehumanization. But at the bottom line, if Palestinians are not a nation, those within borders subject to Israeli law should have equal rights.

 

Israel had to strike back. And there was no way to do so without significant civilian casualties. But they don’t seem to be trying that hard. Building knocks and flyers aren’t much when whole quarters are flattened. The losses may not be intentional, but neither do they seem fully collateral. It feels 50% of the way to Condor Legion breaking the will of the Basque population.

I somewhat understand the historical mindset of the IDF that they can’t worry about world opinion because the world has always failed to protect the Jews; they have to do whatever is necessary, erring on the side of excess, to show the cost of killing Jews. And that has had some rough logic. But this seems even beyond that.

I’m rambling. Just so horrible.

 

a) Ever seen any polling of Palestinians about their thoughts about Israel? The majority of them want to see Israel gone from the map.

b) That is up to them but it is not like Gaza is the only place there are Palestinians.

c) The world use to care up until the point Palestinians started doing things like killing Jewish Olympians and throwing a 69 year old man in a wheel chair off the back of a cruise ship.

FYI, there are a couple of us on this board that have been dealing with Islamic terror groups for the majority of our adult lives. This has been our life's work so instead of trying to be cute, maybe read and take some time to actually think about what we are taking time out of our lives to share.

 

I'd be interested in a poll of Gaza noncombatants that feel it's ok, or more than ok, to kill Jews...and unfortunately bet a majority would be firmly behind Hamas and their recent incursion into Israel. Their hate seems insurmountable.

 

I'm sure the OP is reading the responses as I think he wanted to state his point of view and see what the response to it was.

 

Honestly, I don’t care about their opinions. Or, I should say, their opinions don’t matter. Opinions don’t rape, murder, and pillage. They have the absolute right to hate in their hearts so long as that’s where the hate stays. I care only about the people whose hate has translated into acts of violence or support for that violence. Truly sorry about the others. I genuinely hope as many as possible can get out of the grasp of Hamas to relative safety.

 

"As Supreme Court Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes expressed so eloquently in his 1929 dissent in United States v. Schwimmer, “If there is any principle of the Constitution that more imperatively calls for attachment than any other, it is the principle of free thought — not free thought for those who agree with us but freedom for the thought that we hate.”

Nearly 90 years later, in 2017, Justice Samuel Alito memorably expressed this concept in Matal v. Tam with a homage to Justice Holmes, writing:

Speech that demeans on the basis of race, ethnicity, gender, religion, age, disability, or any other similar ground is hateful; but the proudest boast of our free speech jurisprudence is that we protect the freedom to express “the thought that we hate.”

Even the following, as absolutely repugnant as it could possibly be, was protected.:

"In Snyder v. Phelps, the United States Supreme Court protected in an 8-1 decision the hateful speech of the Westboro Baptist Church — known for picketing military funerals with signs that read “God hates fags” and “Thank God for dead soldiers” — during a 2006 protest near the funeral of Lance Corporal Matthew A. Snyder, a Marine killed in Iraq."

Is hate speech protected by the First Amendment?

 

You forgot that the Ogres would need to round up and deliver all of the members of the IRGC that have been supporting Hamas.