The Inconvenient Truth of Palestine

I think the issue is that is the baseline. They pretty much always do that. They can't really access the upper leadership, who is mostly out of the country, but they go after the junior/operational leadership all the time. And they can't really do nothing different after that scale of an attack. That is the problem here. Their hand is a bit forced right now. A lot that can be said about their role in the circumstances that led to this situation, as well as the role of Hamas, PLO, Egypt, Jordan, Iran, Lebanon, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, etc., but, in the short-term, you can't really allow somebody to come into your country and murder ~1,000 civilians without major repercussions.

 

I only wish more posters would put this much thought into their posts. I may not agree with every point you make, but your post is a breath of fresh air. Thank you for the very informative effort and my ultimate hope is that we can have true peace some day. Unfortunately, man is too hellbent on power, control and thus, war. Be well.

 

I don't think you can separate the issues from religion, which is one reason why a true one-state solution, in which both groups get votes is a non-starter for Israel. Israel frames itself as a "Jewish and Democratic state." It would be tough to meet that goal if Jewish people were not a majority, at least in reality. There are differing perspectives on what the phrase means, with some taking a more overtly religious position and others taking it to be fundamentally secular, but it is a tough to argue that a Jewish state could exist if it was a primarily Muslim population.

 

I don’t agree with everything the OP wrote, but I must admit, I was taken aback to learn that Israel (in day one of the war no less) had decided to purposely deprive Gazans of food, running water and electricity. That gave me some pause for sure.

 

Time only ever moves forward. We cash and should learn from the past, but we cannot let ourselves be stuck in it. To do so, one lets the present get away, and give himself no future. The Palestinians are stuck in the past.

I believe we can forgive while not forgetting. If the Nazi leaders were above today, I'd want them in jail, not dead, for their crimes against humanity. And we shouldn't punish their kids. Because if we continue to push an eye for an eye, we all end up blind. Or as I said before, wash, rinse, repeat.

I understand Israel is currently in a no win scenario. Hamas will hide themselves and their munitions among the Palestinian citizens. There is no way to prevent citizen deaths.

 

I agree with a lot of this post. The IDF has made incursions into Gaza time immemorial. But that really never stopped anything long-term re: callous, heinous attacks by hamas. For some reason, this time, I envisage a complete destruction of Gaza and annihilation of many, many innocent Palestinians, who did not want this, nor had any hand in the cold-blooded murderous attack of innocent Jews.

I stand steadfast with the Jewish people and the Palestinian people, not with Netanyahu, not with hamas.

 

Do you have this perspective with slavery and Jim Crow? Should Black people just get over it? Get over all of the harm those things did and the effects that still linger? The past matters. It affects what happens today. And we still feel the harms of the past.

Of course the Palestinians are stuck in the past. They believe they had their land stolen from them. But they're also stuck in a present where they're treated as less than. So you want them to forget the wrongs done to them in the past while wrongs are still being done to them in the present? C'mon.

That isn't to say the Palestinians have done no wrong. And I am certainly not sticking up for Hamas. F*** Hamas. But you're glossing over some important things in demanding the Palestinians just get over it.

Of course you'd want them jailed. And if their children were still persecuting your family today, I expect you'd want to fight them, to strip them of power, and to see justice done. Now, put yourself in the shoes of the Palestinians. Not Hamas. A normal Palestinian.

That's certainly what some folks will tell themselves as they justify Israel's retaliatory strikes. 40% of Gaza are children under the age of 15. When is it morally acceptable to kill innocent children? People, including myself, are rightfully furious at Hamas over what they did to innocent women and children. So are we really going to look the other way if Israel goes out and kills a bunch of innocent women and children?

 

You just described a siege. You do understand that the Soviets did the same to Berlin in 1945? I’m positive there were plenty of innocent Germans who did not deserve it, but that doesn’t mean the Soviets shouldn’t have done it anyway. The more important matter was breaking the Nazi center of power for all time.

 

@swampspring - Your case would be a lot stronger if the representatives of Palestine in the US were not out in public celebrating what a medieval chevauchée would look like today with modern firearms, shouting "To the River to the Sea, Palestine will be free." You did not see anyone at those marches/events saying that was not what Palestinians stood for. Instead they were out there clamoring for the destruction of Israel and death to all the Jews located there. Until Palestinians decide they are tired of missing opportunity after opportunity for peace and decide to throw off the yoke of Hamas, do not expect those of us in the West to sympathize with your plight when it is mostly self inflicted through poor decisions and the inability to take half a loaf.

Until people like you that claim to be moderates are willing to turn on Hamas/ISIS/Taliban and denounce their actions and take your own future into your own hands and fight them for it, do not expect a lot of sympathy for the rest of the civilized world. Hamas is conducting acts that you would only expect to see during the medieval ages when the world was dark, disgusting, and cruel. So you have a choice, either choose to join fight against Hamas for the future of the Palestinian people or stop trying to justify their actions.

I say that as some who has spent more time in Middle East countries than I care to remember, working with the indigenous population to fight the terrorists trying to over take their county.

 

Siege warfare is covered under the Law of War. If you want to hear more about it, listen to the most recent Advisory Opinions podcast.

 

You are just wrong on all 3 counts here. Rockets are still incoming from gaza, hamas fighters are still raiding across the border, and commercial flights are still suspended.

 

Then you, too, should be screaming from the rooftops for Hamas to surrender as quickly as possible. If they do, the hostages return home (just raped a little), only Hamas faces justice, the innocents in Gaza are spared the harsh reality of a siege, no more IDF soldiers have to die, Israel can demobilize, and the youth can go back to peace concerts. Winners all around as far as I can see. Put your rhetorical talents to that instead.

 

And that is wrong. It is the ultraorthodox obsession to increase settlements and Net support of them that led to troops being moved away from Gaza to the WB that left so many exposed and why it took so long for the army to get there. The rapid population growth of the orthodox is leading Israel too far right

 

Wonder what “Palestine” would look like today if the Ottoman’s had stayed out of WW1.

 

Yes, I'm sure Hamas is going to listen to an American Jew asking them to surrender. But sure, will do. Hamas, you evil terrorists, surrender and return the hostages without further harm. Okay, I did it. When Hamas doesn't do that, do you sanction Israel killing innocent women and children?

 

And you have to appreciate the irony of that. It was the secular (or least less religious) Jews who established Israel and fought for its independence; the Orthodox were entirely opposed to a Jewish state without a Messiah and worked against Ben Gurion et al. There are still a few holdouts who oppose using Hebrew except for religious purposes even though it’s the national language. Funny how today they insist on running an enterprise they wanted nothing to do with.

 

So is your position they should go easy on Hamas because Palestinian civilians will be killed in the fray?

 

My position is that you don't get to keep the moral high ground when your retaliation for the terrorists killing innocent women and children involves you knowingly killing innocent women and children.

 

No, I but also didn’t feel it the way I do when you argue for Israel to let it go like Elsa in Frozen. One more time, only this time say it like Al Pacino at the end of … And Justice for All. Tell Hamas how out of order they all!

 

I'm not arguing Israel should let it go. I'm arguing Israel shouldn't kill a bunch of innocent women and children out of a desire for vengeance.