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The Inconvenient Truth of Palestine

Discussion in 'Too Hot for Swamp Gas' started by swampspring, Oct 12, 2023.

  1. swampspring

    swampspring GC Legend

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    I debated whether to even participate in this discussion, given the current climate. I know in the past I have been particularly engaged on this topic but I realize this ends up in a pissing contest that goes nowhere (especially with posters I have come to like and agree with on many other things, such as duchen and many others, etc.), I’m just going to write this up to give representation to those who are not represented. It's long, and my apologies for that.

    A little background. While I was born and raised in the US, my ancestry is Palestinian. My ancestors lived in Palestine for centuries and prior to their eviction in 1948, came from a village called Saris, now known as Shoresh. (If interested, there is a documentary called Searching for Saris that talks about the area)

    In 1948, as with many villages in the area, the threat of Zionist militia’s brought fear among the indigenous Palestinian population, most of whom were unarmed due to the British and therefore could not defend themselves. Zionist militia’s such as the Haganah, massacred civilians at villages like Balad al-Sheikh and Deir Yassin among others, causing civilians like those in Saris, to flee in fear. My grandfather was a teenager at the time, but one of his uncles was killed while my great-grandfather lost his eye from being beaten by Zionist soldiers.

    As with other villages, they fled and ended up in a refugee camp near Ramallah. My mother was born here and this is also where my grandfather was trained to become a woodworker due to the UN Refugee Vocational Program. As with all Palestinians, our family longed to return to our ancestral homeland.

    Flash forward to the horrific events of this past weekend. The world awoke to the tragedy that unfolded, and continues to unfold. You have all seen the images and videos. You have also seen almost every news outlet portraying all Palestinians as terrorists, inciters who attacked a defenseless Israel. Since then, every article, image, and headline focused entirely on the tragedy within Israel. Every government appeared to unite in support of Israel. Every celebrity, influencer, liberal or conservative unified in this stance. Heck, even our congressional representatives, who can never unify on anything for the sake of American citizens were unified in their condemnation.

    The response was unanimously in favor and support of Israel. All Palestinians were labeled as terrorists, animals and sub-humans that needed to be extinguished. Cancel culture was in full bloom, anyone who spoke in support of Palestinian civilians was labeled a terrorist sympathizer. Anyone who gave anything but 100% unconditional support to the Israelis was labeled a bigot, an antisemitic, and were vilified in every forum.

    As a result, Israel was given the green light to do as they feel was necessary to enforce justice and enact revenge on their defenseless country. The US immediately sent whatever arms that were at their disposal. These bombs and missiles were then used to raze entire blocks of Gaza, killing thousand plus civilians, of which the majority were women and children. Save for a few, the world continues to turn a blind eye.

    The propaganda machine also took shape. Every media outlet shared the voice of the Israelis, not even bothering to give the Palestinians, one voice or any representation. The first 48 hours, not one Palestinians voice was given on CNN, a supposedly leftist outlet. Our President, Biden, even added fuel to the fire by saying he witnessed dead Israeli babies that were beheaded in a press conference. Later, it was found out to be a lie. He also said women were being raped, yet no evidence to this point of any of that happening (either by Israeli authorities or HR groups). Funny how propaganda works. We also said Iraq had wmd’s, Kuwait said Iraqi’s were throwing babies out of incubators on the floor, all founds to be untrue. Note: Count how many times our officials, from the President to Senators/Reps stumbled over themselves to show their solidarity with Israel while completely ignoring any civilian deaths in Palestine.

    The combination of images, videos, and sensationalized media pieces in conjunction with every pseudo celeb and government official depicted Palestinians as heinous monsters and Israelis as victims. CNN, BBC, Skynews, etc., only brought in a Palestinian expert to ask one question: ‘Do you condemn what Hamas is doing?’ Why would you ask that question? As if all Palestinians would support that, or if all Palestinians are Hamas, or if all Palestinians should bear the load of extremists.

    Yet, this same world also turned a blind eye to the atrocities, bigotry, and human rights violations that continue to affect Palestinians leading up to last week’s events. Just this year, more than 250 Palestinians, including more than 50 children, were murdered by Israel in the West Bank. The world sat quiet. These don’t go reported by mainstream media. As it has been for every year for the past 56 years, the world couldn’t bother to even recognize their pain. The media never bothered to consider the plight of the Palestinians. As a side note, unlike the rest of the western world’s media outlets, Haaretz, an Israeli newspaper, was one of the few who had the integrity and honesty to identify the true culprit of these events:

    The disaster that befell Israel on the holiday of Simchat Torah is the clear responsibility of one person: Benjamin Netanyahu. The prime minister, who has prided himself on his vast political experience and irreplaceable wisdom in security matters, completely failed to identify the dangers he was consciously leading Israel into when establishing a government of annexation and dispossession, when appointing Bezalel Smotrich and Itamar ben-Gvir to key positions, while embracing a foreign policy that openly ignored the existence and rights of Palestinians.

    Every year, hundreds of Palestinians are murdered by the IDF and/or settlers. The world turned a blind eye. Every year, thousands are wrongfully imprisoned under their administration law. The world turned a blind eye. Every year, Israel continues to build settlements on occupied land, forcefully removing Palestinians from their homes. The world turns a blind eye. Journalists and first aid providers are routinely shot at. 52 journalists have been killed, some of whom have been American. The world turns a blind eye. This the height of dehumanization.

    The way the media and our government officials portray it, if the Haitian revolution occurred today, France would be deemed the victim and the Haitians the oppressors.

    Gaza​

    Palestinians in Gaza live in an open-air prison. Due to blockades, they have little access to water, food, and electricity. The children in Gaza are severely malnourished as a result. The situation is dire and has been for decades, but the world sat quiet. No news covered their plight. No media outlet dared give them a voice. No media outlet dared to humanize these people, of which 50% of the population are children. Israel routinely bombs Gaza, murdering entire families and the world never hears about it.

    Gaza is a literal camp created by Israel to put all the leftover Palestinians in after they ethnically-cleansed the region. Many of the inhabitants in Gaza are not even from there. This man-made camp is completely controlled by Israel, as you can see from the blockade on food, water, and electricity. It is a camp inside a country, it is not a neighboring country. It is a literal ghetto created for Palestinians by Israel.

    So with that in mind, how do you think the conditions are inside a camp of two million people that is only three miles wide? As we recently celebrated Indigenous day this week, the irony isn’t lost on me that just like Native Americans in this country, we placed the indigenous Palestinians in their form of a reservation.

    Hamas​

    Hamas was assisted in its formation by Israel as a counterweight to the leftist secular Palestinian Liberation Organization (PLO) and the Fatah Party. Brig. General Yitzhak Segev told a NY Times report that he was given a budget by the Israeli government to form this counterweight, a type of divide-and-rule of the Occupied Territories.

    Flash forward to 2006, they were democratically elected to represent Gaza, effectively pushing out the former dominant party, Fatah. Hamas was elected primarily because of the continued Israeli occupation of the west bank, the perceived weakness of both Fatah and PLO in providing a strong voice, and the corruption within the PLO.

    The question that comes up often is that the civilians in Gaza voted for Hamas and therefore deserves punishment as a result of Hamas’s actions. By that same token, the same question should also be asked of Israelis, who continue to reelect Netanyahu, who is known for his corruption and extremism, even among Israelis.

    Hamas, while extremely conservative and radical, and unlike the other parties, also did not recognize Israel, were seen as an alternative voice because of the unmet socioeconomic needs of the population. They filled the void that western (and Israeli) endorsed PLO and Fatah could not, providing food, Jobs, financial security, and healthcare. However, the cost of this democratic vote led to an immediate blockade of Gaza, both from Egypt from the southwest, and Israel from the remaining areas. The local population was effectively shut off from the world exacerbating the tension and extremism that followed.

    The attacks that occurred this past Saturday, while tragic, is a direct result of the continuation of the longest occupation in modern history. Fifty-six years of occupation has turned this area into the worst form of apartheid, which the late Nelson Mandela had noted. The upheaval from continuous settler attacks on Palestinians in West Bank, eviction of more than twenty Palestinian communities within the past year, attacks on both Muslim Palestinian and Christian Palestinian holy sites, including daily attacks on worshippers at Aqsa during Ramadan, provocation by soldiers at these holy sites, as well a recent declaration by Netanyahu and key administrative officials of liquidating Palestinian rights.

    Just recently, Netanyahu dared to go before the United Nation and carried a map of Israel, which in this depiction included the whole of the West Bank, all of Gaza, all of Jerusalem, as well as the Golan Heights. He declared the annexation of the entirety of the occupied territories as an extreme provocation. His finance minister, Bezalel Smotrich, a self-described ‘fascist homophobe’ who is also a settler, earlier this year even increased the rhetoric by advocating for the erasure of a Palestinian village Hawara by Israel. He also said the Palestinians have one of three options: either to emigrate, accept a life of subjugation to Israelis, or die.

    In the West Bank, Palestinians are paralyzed by more than 560 military checkpoints for the past thirty years and is divided into 224 smaller ghettos. Each ghetto is further separated by settlements where extremist settlers continually violently harass and attack Palestinian civilians, even encouraged to do so. If you ever find yourself in the area, go to Hebron, you will find huge nets and grates above all the shops. Tourists wonder why they are there. They are there to protect civilians and shopkeepers from settlers on the upper floors from throwing trash, feces, and other disgusting items on them.

    There are more than 5300 Palestinian prisoners in Israeli jails, of which 1260 are in jail without knowing why under the so-called administrative detention law. This law allows them to indefinitely detain without explanation. Children are routinely kidnapped by the Israeli army and placed in jail for months, even years.

    Palestinians have lived their entire life under occupation. The world blames Palestinians for Hamas. Hamas wasn’t there before the 1980’s and yet, the PLO was also called a terrorist organization. Any Palestinian who has struggled for his rights, his human rights, his dignity has been described by the world as a terrorist. Do we not have the right to struggle for freedom? Do we not have the right to have normalcy in our lives, without fear of being killed, imprisoned, or tortured?

    If we struggle in a military way, we’re called terrorist. If we struggle in a non-violent way, we’re still called terrorists and the world approves of protestors being shot at. If we resist with words we are called provocateurs. If you support Palestinian human rights as a foreigner, you are called an antisemite or a terrorist sympathizer. And if you are a Jewish person who supports Palestinians, of which there are quite a few, you are called a self-hating Jew.

    The Palestinians live every day with a boot on their neck. Every day they wake up to Israeli violence in their communities. This past weekend the world only saw the horrors from one side, not understanding what the Palestinians deal with daily. Just today, eleven United Nation employees were killed in Israeli airstrikes in Gaza.

    Gaza is now out of fuel. Whatever is left of their hospital system is about to collapse. 1500 plus dead to date, hundreds being children, no treatment or aid for the wounded, and being shut off from the world in all directions. Limbs of children are found in different places due to the blasts. If you saw the videos/images I have seen that are not shown on mainstream media, your heart will be crushed. No electricity, no internet, and therefore, no one to report on the tragedy. Eventually the water will dry up and already 338k civilians have been displaced. The world continues to cheer this destruction. War crimes be damned. Collective punishment, use of white phosphorous, none of those clear human rights violations matter to the world now, they want their blood.

    Palestinian casualties are always footnotes. The daily humiliation of occupation ignored. The aggression by settlers and soldiers alike on holy sites. The annihilation of entire families that follows. The devastation of whatever remains in the open air prison called Gaza. It is unsustainable and inhumane.

    For the sudden interest in the region by celebrities and your average person who couldn’t find any of those countries on a map now speaking as regional experts, I request that you dig a bit deeper than the past week or so and try to read beyond the headlines of the media that has been dehumanizing us for decades. I always wondered how the world rationalizes the endless amount of financial and military support for Ukraine fighting what they call an occupation while here they are supporting the occupier who continues to occupy us. The difference in power dynamics is not even remotely on the same level, but Goliath has the entirety of the world in support.

    What would the world like the Palestinians to do? What is the endgame here? For Israel to take everything, to force the equivalent of ethnic cleansing? Palestinians want their freedom. We will never give that up. The two-state solution is dead, despite the pleas from idealists who think that is a reality. Israel has trampled enough and settled on enough occupied land that a two-state solution, the way it is currently configured, in untenable. Israel has not met with any Palestinian authorities since 2014, they have no interest in peace negotiations, honest peace negotiations. (Earlier this year, Netanyahu said people get “hung up” on peace negotiations with the Palestinians, saying he has opted for a different approach. “I went around them (Palestinians), I went directly to the Arab states and forged with a new concept of peace…”

    The current situation is also untenable. A highly charged disenfranchised and young population that have been dehumanized for decades is a recipe for disaster. Israelis won’t be safe. And obviously the Palestinians are never safe.

    Something must change. Palestinians and Israelis must be treated as equals by the world. Palestinians lives matter just as much as Israelis.

    I realize this is long, but I don’t care. Had to get it off my chest. I’m sure I’ll get a ton of ‘come on mans’, a few ad hominem attacks, maybe some ‘tldr’, but I’m really not here to debate. It's a contentious issue. I get that. As a human, the hypocrisy is frustrating; As a Palestinian American, even moreso.

    I also recommend you please watch the video below from noted Physician and Holocaust survivor Dr. Gabor Mate.

     
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  2. G8tas

    G8tas GC Hall of Fame

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    Can someone give me the TLDR version of the above post?
     
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  3. AndyGator

    AndyGator VIP Member

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    Longest post ever
     
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  4. duchen

    duchen VIP Member

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    Here is a story with pictures of dead babies who your freedom fighters murdered in their cribs. Some they burned. Netanyahu's office releases horrifying images of infants murdered by Hamas | The Times of IsraelThere is already a thread in this subject, including the discussions of the Hamas Charter that called for the death of Jews everywhere. The attacks are not the result of an occupation. But Hamas’ call to kill Jews. They don’t want peace. Their charter rejects any peace agreement. And when Israel tried to give Gaza back to Egypt, Egypt refused. Before 1948, there was no country there. Sultanate, Ottoman Empire and then the British mandate. When Dyan offered the land taken in 1967 back for peace, the Palestinians refused. Jordan abandoned the West Bank. Arafat would not sign the negotiated peace treaty in 1999. There has never been a Palestine. Ever.
     
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  5. tampagtr

    tampagtr VIP Member

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    Thank you posting. Was wondering if you would. I suspected but did not know your personal history. Thank you for sharing that.

    The plight of the Palestinians is a just one. Their dehumanization is real. Palestinians are not Hamas but what Hamas did is just so barbaric the world must end those responsible individuals.

    I appreciate that's easy to say. There's no practical way to do so without causing more misery. And that's wrong both in and of itself and creates a cycle.

    I don't have any good answers. I struggle with it. What Hamas did must be responded to. It is so barbaric. To not respond is seemingly unthinkable.

    But the Palestinian cause is just, and they are again being dehumanized. And you are correct that the Palestinians have no real way to redress their wrongs, to obtain basic human justice. They are being openly ethnically cleansed in the West Bank.

    I'm just rambling. I realize I'm not making any coherent sense. I don't have any easy answers. The sheer barbarity of what happened makes me want to see Hamas destroyed. The suffering of the victims cries out, especially because it echoes so much of the darkest aspects of human history, a people that have suffered so. I love the idea of Israel as a refuge against the continual cruelties that the rest of the world has imposed on the Jews through the centuries, including from those of my heritage and my community.

    But the Palestinians continue to suffer unjustly.

    In Catholic theology we call it seeing the face of the other. We have a hard time seeing the face of the Palestinian.

    Again just rambling. So much pain. Thanks for posting this.
     
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  6. gator_lawyer

    gator_lawyer VIP Member

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    Hamas are evil. They deserve nothing but condemnation, revulsion, and decimation. But the Palestinians and Hamas are not the same thing. It would be like conflating Christians with the Klan.

    Israel's treatment of the Palestinians is and has been shameful. I say this as a Jew. I am dismayed and disappointed that my people, after a history of being treated as second-class citizens or worse, have decided to do the same in a nation where they have power to another minority group.

    I recognize that these issues are complex, but we should never accept the harming of innocents as simply the cost of doing business. Hamas did that, and Israel is now retaliating by doing the same. We should condemn Israel for that, just like we condemn Hamas for their despicable acts of terror. We're seeing a lot of the same jingoism that cropped up after 9/11, and that led to a lot of civilians becoming collateral damage.

    We must demand more from ourselves this time around. We must see the value in the lives of both the Israelis and Palestinians. We should seek to facilitate peace. We should seek to facilitate equality. And yes, we should also seek justice, for all the innocents harmed. I can tell you what the end result will be if we choose retribution over justice and peace: more innocent people dying and more people becoming radicalized. Groups like Hamas and Hezbollah feed off vengeance and despair.
     
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  7. PITBOSS

    PITBOSS GC Hall of Fame

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    And ending with a video introduced by russell brand?
     
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  8. defensewinschampionships

    defensewinschampionships GC Hall of Fame

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    This would be a lot simpler if Hamas did not embed with civilians. But it’s a common technique of insurgents.

    I think Israel DGAF enough to care. Hamas is a cowardly bunch, and Israel is about to unleash hate on Hamas and whoever they are hiding behind.
     
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  9. gatorpa

    gatorpa GC Hall of Fame

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    I didn’t read the entire OP but I noticed some assertions in first 6 paragraphs that seem very inaccurate.
    I haven’t seen where any major group has said all Palestinians are the problem.

    Quite the contrary most have been very clear to make the distinction between Hamas a terrorist organization and the people of Palestine.
     
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  10. gator_lawyer

    gator_lawyer VIP Member

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    They're doing a lot more than that.
    Israel tells 1.1 million people to leave northern Gaza in 24 hours: UN
     
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  11. defensewinschampionships

    defensewinschampionships GC Hall of Fame

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  12. cluckugator

    cluckugator VIP Member

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    I respect your viewpoint and I actually read all of your post.

    It’s as simple as this. UBL intentionally killed innocents for what he perceived to be inhumane acts against the Muslim world.

    Hamas intentionally killed innocent men, women and children for their dislike of Israel’s acts.

    You can’t INTENTIONALLY kill civilians, especially women and kids, in the first blow. You will have no sympathy when civilians are killed in the retaliatory strikes targeting military operations. The rules have changed in the eye of the public after the first strike.

    I can’t imagine having family in Gaza, but that is the way it works. Especially given the stance of Hamas on civilian Jews across the globe and what future strikes would / could look like.

    And if this is unpopular look at the stance nearly all our leaders are taking. And first strike is recent memory, don’t blame me for that. Just how it is viewed.
     
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  13. gator_lawyer

    gator_lawyer VIP Member

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    1.1 million people are not all going to be able to relocate in 24 hours. And there really isn't anywhere to go. It's already densely packed. There really isn't anywhere to go.
     
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  14. defensewinschampionships

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    I was agreeing with you. There’s no where for them to go. And Israel is out for blood.
     
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  15. gatorpa

    gatorpa GC Hall of Fame

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    Hamas has already told them to stay, that invasion is just Zionist propaganda.
     
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  16. gator_lawyer

    gator_lawyer VIP Member

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    There is no rule here. It's a choice. Nobody is forcing anybody to not have sympathy for the innocent Palestinians killed. If you make that choice, it's on you. Don't cite to some nonexistent rule. And if you aren't making that choice, there's no need to make excuses for those who are. We can condemn and combat evil without losing our humanity in the process.
     
  17. gator_lawyer

    gator_lawyer VIP Member

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    Got it. Sorry.
     
  18. defensewinschampionships

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    No worries. Just a shitty situation for those civilians.
    War freaking sucks.
     
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  19. cluckugator

    cluckugator VIP Member

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    Sorry. Didn’t mean I or anyone else shouldn’t have sympathy.

    The world powers and our politicians are just going to support most military action due to Hamas’ tactics.

    It simply is what it is. Don’t need to call it a rule, but that is exactly what will continue to occur given the attack on civilians.

    Agree with poster above war sucks.
     
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  20. l_boy

    l_boy 5500

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    Thus the issue. You have 2 groups of people who feel they have exclusive right to lands based upon history. Unless the two sides can agree on a sharing, one side will win, one side will lose. Look at all the people early American settlers ravaged on the way to forming the US. But most people aren’t calling for the US to give all those lands back.

    To be blunt - to the Victor go the spoils. It isn’t necessarily just, it is just how the human race has operated.

    The tragedy was caused by Hamas engaging in deliberate terrorist attacks against civilians, including women and children. These weren’t collateral damage. They were the targets. This wasn’t a military attack on Israeli military targets. It was an attack on civilians with intentional brutality, plus the taking of hostages.

    There is no “other side” to these actions. There is no counter point. Period.

    This really isn’t true. I think most people have sympathy for ordinary Palestinians situation, even though it isn’t clear to us what the answer is.

    Again, there is no counterpoint to be made. Hamas, a group whose stated mission is to wipe out Israel engaged in these intentional and heinous acts.

    Defenseless women and children were brutally murdered and kidnapped. This is not up for debate.

    Typically Israeli violence follows Hamas missile and other attacks. One can debate whether they are just or proportionate, but context is important. And many of these deaths are caused due to Hamas embedding themselves in the population, which best I can tell is supported by the residents of Gaza.

    No. It was Hamas. I’ve never liked Netanyahu for various reasons and he certainly hasn’t helped the situation, but the Palestinians in Gaza put their future in the hands of Hamas, and the stated goals of Hamas were clear.


    I wouldn’t say a blind eye. Israel has a lot of detractors around the world, and these events garnered a lot of attention and condemnation

    It is because nobody wants any part of Hamas. It isn’t just Israel. It’s also Egypt. No other Muslim countries have stepped up to help either.

    Also, I have heard an Israeli source who said one of the reasons Palestinians are starving is because countries including Israel send in aid to Gaza, and Hamas intercepts it, and doesn’t distribute all of it - presumably because Palestinian suffering helps their cause.

    instead of taking concrete received from others and building housing, they took it and built tunnels. And by the way hundreds of children apparently died digging those tunnels.

    Finally Hamas continuously brought in weapons hidden in the food and other aid, and they were discovered, which would result in more restrictions.

    That’s not the way to characterize it. The civilians of Gaza inevitably sealed their fate, which results in them being victims of the punishment, but I don’t think most people think ordinary Palestinians should be punished. It’s Hamas and its helpers that should be punished, but Gaza residents are going to be inevitable collateral damage. Yes the result is the same but the intent is different.

    I am not a history buff but I don’t think there was ever a potential settlement that was acceptable to the Palestinians.


    This is true. But Hamas has made it clear both Israel and Hamas can’t coexist. So the only choice Israel has is to effectively wipe out Hamas, to the best of its ability. This will be terrible for Palestinians in Gaza who get caught up in it.
     
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