The Illusion of Moral Decline

This is not accurate. There were not many other belief systems with similar values as Christianity. As the British historian Tom Holland, who is not a believer, points out in his book Dominion: The Making of the Western Mind (US subtitle How the Christian Revolution Remade the World), the moral values that we hold dear today came about with the spread of Christianity.

Holland asserts that had there not been Christianity then we would’ve inherited our culture from the Greeks and the Romans. Neither culture espoused the morals that we value today. It was Christianity that first taught that the lowest of society, those weak or oppressed or victims, had value and status. All were created in the image of God. It was Jesus and the Apostle Paul who first preached universal human rights.

Take the Me Too movement. In Roman culture, a freedman had complete license to behave sexually anyway he wanted to with those in his household, including servants and slaves and workers. The ancient Greeks and Romans would’ve looked at Harvey Weinstein and said “what’s the problem?” It was Christian culture that first said lower status people had rights.

The Roman emperor Julian the Apostate, who worked hard to revitalize worship of the Roman gods, was nevertheless impressed that it was the Christians who cared for the poor, sick, and dying. Writing to a pagan priest he said: “when it came about that the poor were neglected and overlooked by the [pagan] priest, then I think the impious Galileans [i.e, Christians] observed this fact, and devoted themselves to philanthropy… [They] support not only their poor, but ours as well, all men see that our people lack aid from us.”

When plagues hit large Greek or Roman cities, the wealthy Greeks and Romans took off for the safety of the countryside. It was the Christians who stayed behind to help those in need.

You say that moral values are needed for healthy community. That is true, but history has shown us that that has not been mankind‘s highest priority. Genghis Khan did not care about community. When the Egyptians enslaved millions of people to build the pyramids and other structures, they were not thinking of healthy community. Julius Caesar and the Romans killed up to 1 million people in the Gallic wars, and enslaved up to another million. Spartans threw deformed or handicapped babies into ravines in their idea of promoting a healthy society. Examples are almost endless.

Here’s an interview given by Holland where he’s discusses the subject:



Even though we disagree, I wish you a very merry Christmas. May this day bring joy and peace to you and your family!

 

If a Christian jettisoned belief and became an atheist tomorrow, I would still expect that person to hold to the rest of the commandments. The reason would be that they would still possess the worldview built on Judeo-Christian foundational beliefs. In fact, the person doesn’t even have to start out as a Christian. Most western atheists today hold to a Christian morality. Please see my previous post explaining how pervasively the spread of Christianity developed cultural values and morals in the western world.

The more interesting question is what values would an atheist have if they did not have a Judeo-Christian foundation, which they have merely by being born, raised, or living in the western world. Nothing in pre-Christian societies would point to the moral values that we hold today.

I wish you a very merry Christmas. May this day bring joy and peace to you and your family!

 

Thomas Cahill makes similar arguments, even arguing that the Book of Philemon led to abolition. Reading more scholarship later, I think the point is overstated, but it’s directionally accurate.

Of course, it’s hard to recreate alternative history and progress generally, and the Enlightenment represented moral progress as a rejection of then dominant Christian ethics. But the point remains.

Edited to add: Though neither continued along the 13 year path to ordination, both Cahill and Garry Wills started out as Jesuit novitiates and were heavily formed by the experience

 

Again the ethic of reciprocity is the only basis needed for good morality. And it’s in no way unique to any one religion.

 

It’s possible that the various religions can be reduced to the principle of reciprocity.

Provided that certain religions are not true.

 

I already agreed with your statement that the ethics of those Commandments are needed for healthy community. That is why God gave them to Moses on Mount Sinai. You seem to be implying, however, that because those statements are necessary for healthy communities therefore all cultures embraced them and lived by them. History shows that isn’t true.

I suppose that in listing the opposite Commandments and asking which moral frameworks held to those, that you are implying that no culture lived by the opposite commandments. Again, I think history refutes that. I think every conquering nation essentially lived by “you shall covet.” And along the way, they carried out “you shall murder” and “you shall steal.” There exist many other examples.

It still boils down to the fact that the morals and values we hold dear in Western Society came about with the spread of Christianity. Caring for the poor and needy, caring for the sick and dying, and caring for widows and orphans, these were all by the spread of Christianity. Christianity elevated women out of the level of property and gave status to the lowest members in society.

Nothing prevents you from being an atheist, but I suspect that your morals are essentially Christian.

 

Can't argue with the historical stuff but I do have to disagree with you on the moral question.

Once you get rid of God, you have now substituted objective right/wrong, good/evil, and even good/better for subjective notions like: more convenient/less convenient, more comfortable/less comfortable, more painful/less painful, etc. Which means that the remaining commandments all become a matters of interpretation and definition. For instance, the words "coveting" and "stealing" don't mean a whole lot unless one first accepts the concepts of "ownership"/"private property". Thus the commandments "thou shalt not steal" or "thou shalt not covet" have very different meanings under Communism than they do under Christianity.

A person who drops Christianity for Atheism is very likely looking for a way to duck out of one, or more, of Christianity's moral precepts.

 

Interesting thread.

I’m curious for those who believe America is in a moral decline, view Capitalisms role in it? (not to compare it though to other economic systems)

For ex: Sex sells. Fear sells. Division sells. Vanity sells. Etc etc. With technology and innovation, supply can create its own demand. Inequality is inherent and a feature. Profit above people.

Separately, a lot of what people view as a moral decline is a byproduct of more freedom, and with more freedom the ability to act more human.

Would you trade freedom for more subjective morality? Is more freedom more moral in and of itself and vice versa? Should the standard of morality be during a less free time?

Either way, with more freedom comes more responsibility.

 

Hope you had a wonderful Christmas.

No doubt that Christianity had and continues to have a major impact on the world. It's worth noting though that many if not most Christians in the West today have different views than their Christian ancestors had 1,000, 500, or even 100 years ago. Things like democratic values (vis a vis the Divine Right of Kings), the role of women, and civil rights are just a few examples.

One reason why there are so many different churches and denominations today is that modern Christians have so many disagreements about the objective truth. Another way to put it is that even assuming there is only one objectively true morality, which is known to God, there is no reason to believe that even sincere Christians have individual access to that objective truth. Otherwise, there wouldn't be so much in-fighting.

I think a strong case can be made that Western society and culture have influenced modern understanding and practice of Christianity as much as the reverse.

 

I think it was Chesterton who lamented that Christianity has leaned over, to accommodate the world, and has fallen into it.

I also think that Biblical illiteracy has contributed to the watering down of Christianity.

 

Your 2nd paragraph reminded me of this old joke, circulating in certain circles for years.

Once I saw this guy on a bridge about to jump. I said, "Don't do it!" He said, "Nobody loves me." I said, "God loves you. Do you believe in God?"

He said, "Yes."

I said, "Are you a Christian or a Jew?"

He said, "A Christian."

I said, "Me, too! Protestant or Catholic?"

He said, "Protestant."

I said, "Me, too! What franchise?"

He said, "Baptist."

I said, "Me, too! Northern Baptist or Southern Baptist?"

He said, "Northern Baptist."

I said, "Me, too! Northern Conservative Baptist or Northern Liberal Baptist?"

He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist."

I said, "Me, too! Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region, or Northern Conservative Baptist Eastern Region?"

He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region."

I said, "Me, too! Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1879, or Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912?"

He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912."

I said, "Die, heretic!" And I pushed him over.

 

Re 2nd paragraph - Madison Avenue, shorthand for the advertising industry - also sells, and was designed to do just that.

To add something I read 7 years ago that struck a bell with me and kept a copy of it.


"This description of American cultural values was first introduced in American Ways: An Introduction to American Culture. It explains the value system that has allowed the United States to assimilate millions of people from diverse cultures all over the world and create a unique, enduring American identity. There are three pairs of values consisting of three reasons why immigrants have come (and still do) to the United States and three prices that are paid for these benefits.

The first is for Individual Freedom and the price for that is Self-Reliance. We cannot be truly free if we cannot take care of ourselves and be independent. The second is for Equality of Opportunity, and the price for that is Competition. If everyone has an equal chance for success, then we have to compete. The third is for The American Dream, the opportunity for a better life and a higher standard of living. The price for the American Dream has traditionally been Hard Work.

The relationship among these values—the rights and the responsibilities—creates the fabric of the American society. It is this fabric that defines the American Dream—the belief that if people take responsibility for their lives and work hard, they will have the individual freedom to pursue their personal goals and a good opportunity to compete for success."

 

Just to clarify, are you asking if capitalism causes moral decline and, if so, to what degree?

 

Good question! Are we to assume capitalism causes moral decline and socialism doesn’t ?

 

Capitalism is a system. Communism is a system. Socialism is a system. Monarchy is a system. Democracy is a system. Theocracy is a system.

Systems can be morally neutral entities. Systems perpetuate immorality when immoral people do immoral things within the system. Systems can also perpetuate morality when people choose moral actions within the system.

So, the difference between the systems is not necessarily that one system is good and another system is evil. The difference IMO is how easily immoral actors can penetrate and enact their immorality on the system.

If you tear down capitalism and build a different system with different mechanisms, then you have to deal with the problems of the new system you’ve created. You have to fix the immoral impulses of the people in any system to fix the system.

 

Can't speak to the question asked of 108, but capitalism is a system that encourages growth and spawned the advertising industry, and agencies that encourage rampant spending. An illuminating BBC documentary reveals the part Sigmund Freud's nephew, Edward Bernays, played in the the development of the field of Public relations and advertising, and how it influenced and changed American culture.

The documentary is lengthy, but can be viewed in segments on Youtube. Despite its length it is worth viewing.

Trailer -

The full documentary -

Part 1 -
Part 2 -
Part 3 -
Part 4 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VouaAz5mQAs
Part 5 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vtTHauxzHZQ&t=15s
Part 6 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ONRFj-2sJs4

 

I don't think any economic system causes "moral decline," however they do shape new forms of social relations, which are often in competition with other older systems and ethical ideas already in place and long held. Capitalism imposed on Christian cultures has produced both the 'prosperity gospel' and also liberation theology, for example. Some will always reconcile the old morality to the present economic forces they benefit from, some will find the contradictions untenable or troubling.

 

Greed and the propensity for self promotion is found in all types of people, no matter what economic system they live in or might prefer.

 

I don't think this is quite true either, our consciousness is shaped by our material conditions. 'Greed' is only really possible in a society where having plenty is also possible or thinkable. "Human nature" is also a myth, an attempt to reconcile behavior to our conditions.

 

I’m okay with sin nature as explanatory of human behavior.