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The Great Land Rush

Discussion in 'Too Hot for Swamp Gas' started by G8trGr8t, Nov 15, 2022.

  1. G8trGr8t

    G8trGr8t Premium Member

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    Found this article interesting. It details the amount of land that will be required to switch from fossil fuels to renewables and how the demand for that land will compete with land requirements for agricultural, residential, and commercial purposes. I firmly believe that the next gen nuclear reactors are a much better solution to energy production than solar/wind and the sheer acreage required for the latter is one reason why.

    Great American Land Rush: US Needs Lots of Land for Green Energy, Housing (businessinsider.com)

    Compared with traditional power plants, renewable plants with the same power-generating capacity take up a lot more land: A 2017 study found that wind farms took up 70 acres per MW while solar farms required 43 acres per MW, including all the land needed for development, power generation, transportation, and storage — 3 1/2 times to five times the land needed by fossil-fuel plants, respectively, according to the analysis. And where their fossil-fuel counterparts can operate all day long, wind and solar generators can operate between 20% and 35% of the time because of the intermittent nature of the energy sources. Wind farms, for instance, take up so much space because the blades of wind turbines are as long as the wings of a Boeing 747, and wind turbines have to be placed far enough for their blades to spin without hitting each other. Less land would be needed for power generation if the wind turbines were larger and spun faster. But while a different design would generate more power with less space, it would also kill more birds. In the United States, wind turbines are thought to kill more than 500,000 birds each year. Restrictions have been imposed on the height and speed of the turbines to lower the risk of bird death.

    Given these existing technological limitations and regulations, the aggregate demand for land to power our future green economy is huge. Suppose the annual electricity demand in the United States remains at about 4 billion MWh in 2050 and the land requirement per MW does not decline. We would need 120,000 square miles, or 77 million acres, of land to install the wind and solar facilities for the energy transition. This is equivalent to the area of three-quarters of California, or two Floridas. But as the number of Americans grows and the country shifts more of its energy focus to renewable sources, there's good reason to think the need for land will also grow. Electricity demand is bound to rise significantly because of the electrification of the transportation sector and the electrification of home heating. A 2021 estimate by Bloomberg using data from researchers at Princeton University suggested that in the most extreme scenario — one where the country gets almost all its new energy from solar or wind power — the US would need to use as much as 267 million acres of land to complete its green-energy transition. That area is nearly 2 1/2 times the size of California or about 1 1/2 times the size of Texas. Under the least land-intensive scenario, the United States would still need to devote an area nearly the size of two North Carolinas, about 63 million acres, to wind and solar power to achieve our green-power goals.
    .......................
    But, as with any new project, a company can't just slap down a new solar plant or wind farm anywhere it wants. For one thing, these sorts of projects require a specific type of land to be cost-efficient and useful. Ideal locations for green-power plants should be in a sunny or windy place, on cheap land, close to the final electricity consumers. But there's one crucial problem: a lot of people want that sort of land. This means green-power generators have a delicate balancing act, seeking locations that have plenty of power-generation potential and are close to urban consumers but far enough away that land costs are lower. From 2010 to 2020, the US's total wind-energy capacity increased from 39,000 MW to 119,000 MW. These new wind farms were primarily added to the South and the Midwest, parts of the country that have the right weather and the right land price. Texas and the Midwest jointly account for roughly two-thirds of our country's wind capacity. But a full green-energy transition requires a more even distribution of renewables.

    With the US projected to add 79 million residents by 2060, the demand for urban and suburban housing will further increase. While the amount of urban land is a relatively small slice of the overall pie, clocking in at just over 3.6% of our total land use based on the most recent data available, it is also the fastest-growing, with the US adding roughly 1 million acres of it per year. At current rates, the amount of newly converted urban space would equal the land area of Virginia by 2050. And projections from the US Department of Agriculture and the Environmental Protection Agency have suggested the shift to urban land could be even more drastic with as much as 8% of the country's land turning into urban sprawl by 2050, a shift of roughly 96 million acres, which the USDA notes "is larger than the state of Montana." Add this increase in urban space to the maximum potential area needed for green energy, and as much as 363 million acres may be transformed over the next 30 years — as little more than double the land area of Texas. Cities are already complaining about a lack of developable land and areas that were once exurban or even rural might be turned into prime real estate. As cities expand, rising land prices in these areas would further constrain the location options for green energy generators.
     
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  2. G8trGr8t

    G8trGr8t Premium Member

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    Two big ways to reduce ag land requirements

    Move to more plant based diets as livestock uses 75% of existing ag land and do more vertical farming. I am a big fan of vertical farming to feed the world but I love my steak and chicken. Vert farming requires less land, less water, less chemicals, locally grown which reduces carbon footprint to distribute and allows for product to ripen more before harvest since it spends less time in transport. And climate is not a consideration.

    Vertical Farming Saves Water and Land and Could Help Global Food Security, Expert Says - EcoWatch

    The future of food is growing up. With the climate crisis and disruptions in the supply chain, “controlled-environment agriculture,” which has been around since the 1970s and includes vertical farming, is gaining more attention as a way to grow healthy food using artificial light, reported The New York Times. The price of LED lights dropped by as much as 94 percent from 2008 to 2015, which helped growing operations move indoors.

    “It’s the ability to put production anywhere without considering climate,” said the CEO of agricultural start-up Plenty Unlimited Arama Kukutai, as The New York Times reported. One of the biggest upsides to vertical farming is the space and soil it saves.

    “Crops are grown in spaces ranging in size from small boxes that can be placed in homes or offices to industrial production facilities with several thousand square meters of growing area,” said Professor of Digital Agriculture at the Technical University of Munich (TUM) Senthold Asseng, in an interview with TUM. “Vertical farming has the potential to grow up to 100 layers of crops above one another on one hectare of land. This will conserve large areas of agricultural land.”

    Some benefits to vertical farming include using far less water, protection from traditional pests because of the indoor environment and crops being able to be harvested numerous times per year. “Vertical farming allows multiple harvests of a cropper year and can make a substantial contribution to global food security. If we optimize the growing conditions for a crop in a closed system, cut off from the outside world, we can reduce water requirements by up to 90 percent and eliminate the need for chemical crop protection,” Asseng told TUM.
     
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  3. WarDamnGator

    WarDamnGator GC Hall of Fame

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    I don't like these "all or nothing" type articles about the future of green energy.

    We don't need to power the entire country with solar. We just need to reduce our carbon emissions enough that it balances out with what nature absorbs. The future should be a combination of wind, solar, hydro, geothermal, nuclear, and even natural gas, based on what makes the most sense for the region.
     
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  4. Woollybooger

    Woollybooger VIP Member

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    Maybe someone needs to tell the Biden administration that, and by the way that is a republican view also.
     
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  5. VAg8r1

    VAg8r1 GC Hall of Fame

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    In addition to vertical farming, the same land used for solar farming can also be used to grow crops. Under "agrovoltaic farming"crops are grown under solar panels a method that can actually be more productive than traditional agriculture methods.
    Can crops grow better under solar panels? Here’s all you need to know about ‘agrivoltaic farming’
    An example from South Korea.
    [​IMG]
    The technology would also work well for tomatoes.
    How solar panels could protect tomatoes from heat and drought | Energy News Network
     
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  6. tegator80

    tegator80 GC Hall of Fame

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    The sticky wicket isn't what is the carbon emissions for the actual production, it is the TOTAL from raw material collection, manufacturing, distribution, production, maintenance, and disposal after its life span is over. As of now, "Green Energy"...isn't. It just isn't.
     
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  7. l_boy

    l_boy 5500

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    Windmills can coexist with other land uses like farmland.

    But I agree all approaches including nuclear should be part of the solution. Realistically because of cost and implementation time nuclear has limits. It will be difficult enough backfilling old existing nuke plants that get decommissioned. I read somewhere that the amount of new wind and solar capacity worldwide implemented that past several years exceeds our entire worldwide nuclear capacity.
     
  8. G8trGr8t

    G8trGr8t Premium Member

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    open field farming still uses more land, more water, and requires chemicals that controlled space environments do not. It also requires more transport to market than if the crop is grown in the middle of the city in an industrial district somewhere

    It would also seem that anything grown under panels would require 100% manual labor as tractors and aerial spraying would not work
     
  9. G8trGr8t

    G8trGr8t Premium Member

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    cost and time to build the nexgen nuclear plants will be substantially less with the plug and play models being developed and they can be strategically located to take advantage of the existing power grid.
     
  10. Tjgators

    Tjgators Premium Member

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    Bravo. I'm kinda shocked how little is discussed how many birds are killed every year by wind farms and how little energy they produce. We have fellow Gators running a renewable energy company in S. FL that was recently fined $8 million for killing 150+ eagles.

    I watched a giant bald eagle at the lake this weekend. It is an incredible site.

    Protect Eagles from Wind Turbine Fatalities | American Eagle Foundation
     
  11. G8trGr8t

    G8trGr8t Premium Member

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    bird deaths are what limits the efficiency of the windmills, smaller, faster blades would produce more energy. Invent a way to keep birds away from windmills and make a fortune

    Love eagles too but they are becoming quite common, especially in Florida. Ian wiped out lots of nests and now eagles are finding new trees which is driving the development business crazy. I have told clients that if they have a tall, sturdy pine tree without a nest on their site to go cut it down and worry about it later. AN eagle moving into a previously permitted project can cause major headaches.

    We salmon fish (harvest) in Alaska most summers and the flat where everybody dnags sockeyes is always populated with 10 - 30 eagles out there taking carcasses or feasting on seagulls that are also after the carcasses. I watched a guy handfeed a filleted salmon carcass to an eagle last summer.

    One challenge is that eagles are scavengers and when windmill kills small birds, eagles come in to feed on the dead birds and get hit themselves.

    ESI just needed to apply for incidental take permits and implement a few other measures to avoid the fines and didn't want to spend the pennies to get the permits. Stupid cost cutting move.

    A wind energy company has pleaded guilty after killing at least 150 eagles : NPR

    Companies historically have been able to avoid prosecution if they take steps to avoid bird deaths and seek permits for those that occur. ESI did not seek such a permit, authorities said.

    The company was warned prior to building the wind farms in New Mexico and Wyoming that they would kill birds, but it proceeded anyway and at times ignored advice from federal wildlife officials about how to minimize the deaths, according to court documents.

    "For more than a decade, ESI has violated (wildlife) laws, taking eagles without obtaining or even seeking the necessary permit," said Assistant Attorney General Todd Kim of the Justice Department's Environment and Natural Resources Division in a statement.
     
  12. enviroGator

    enviroGator GC Hall of Fame

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    Yet to see someone put a power plant on their roof, but seen lots of people put solar on.
     
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  13. 14serenoa

    14serenoa Living in Orange and surrounded by Seminoles... VIP Member

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    So, I install solar panels on my roof and 10 years later I need new roof shingles. I must remove the solar panels and re-install. Elon has a solar roof tile, not extremely efficient at producing power. We need a 50 year all-in-one solar roofing solution to generate power directly where it is used, without 20 middlemen. How did the installed solar panels fair in Ft Meyers after Ian hit?
     
  14. cron78

    cron78 GC Hall of Fame

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    Could reduce the need for ag land by not wasting good cattle feed making ethanol, too.
     
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  15. WarDamnGator

    WarDamnGator GC Hall of Fame

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    Some solar companies offer one free removal and reinstall for new roofs.
     
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  16. tilly

    tilly Superhero Mod. Fast witted. Bulletproof posts. Moderator VIP Member

    Seems some sort of netting could exist around solar fields.
     
  17. G8trGr8t

    G8trGr8t Premium Member

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    Concept at work in Africa

    Combining crops and solar panels is allowing Kenya to ‘harvest the sun twice’
     
  18. WC53

    WC53 GC Hall of Fame

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    saw something on this from maybe Scotland (or I was drinking scotch) panels were about 12’ off ground so tractors could traverse. Also cut water needs in half due to shade.

    Allegedly the workers can pick up different radio stations based on the number of fillings they have.
     
  19. WarDamnGator

    WarDamnGator GC Hall of Fame

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    Just to add a couple more things, there are miles and miles of land in the west that have been bought by developers and stripped of there water rights so they could transfer the rights to build neighborhoods in more desirable areas. It's basically desert in the middle of nowhere, probably perfect for solar, and useless for almost anything else.

    Also consider that solar installations dont have to be a rush to vacant, unusable land. There is talk of ranchers forming partnerships where the panels are installed higher and spaced out a bit more so cows can still walk below and grass can still grow as the shadows don't obstruct the sun all day long. In Tampa there is an office building that built a huge "covered parking" areas made of solar panel roofs, which is probably awesome for employees in Florida, and there are plenty of parking lots that could use that. There is talk of lining man made drainage canals with solar panels in California. Even talk of solar collecting roads and sidewalks.

    Again, I don't think the whole country has to be powered by solar, but there doesn't have to be a rush to unused land, either. It can co-exist beyond just regular roof top.