The girls I met in the tunnels

I'd respectfully suggest a deeper understanding of this conflict starting with birth of the Zionist movement in the late 19th century, the violence that started escalating post WWI, and through to todsy. Both sides have been ruthlessly and horrifically violent to the other. There is no false equivalence here, IMO.

Palestinians didn't wake up one day and choose this path. It's the result of generations of blood spilled.

I'm sure to some on this board, I'm now an antisemite.

 

One thing is clear - there is no military solution here.

 

This is what happens when populations get dissatisfied with messy democracy and elect authoritarians and theocrats into positions of power. There are no more elections after that.

 

We are where we are now, regardless of history. I’m not making any assertions as to which side has victimized who more 100’years ago. There’s plenty of violence on both sides. But at this point in history Israel is an established nation and that isn’t going to change, and many or perhaps most Palestinians are unwilling to accept that.

 

Many/most don't support Hamas. They believe what's happening to the Palestinians is wrong.

I'm quite confident they'd tell you that regardless of how Hamas treats gay people, they don't believe Israel should be in the business of killing Palestinian women and children as payback. (Might even use the word "genocide." I won't go that far, but the right-wing crazies in charge of Israel have taken stances consistent with ethnic cleansing.)

We know what our response was. It wasn't pretty. But we also didn't carpet bomb Afghanistan and then advocate for forcibly displacing all of the people there so we could take over the land.

 

Right, and Palestine is not - and many or perhaps most Israelis are unwilling to except that.

So we can keep brutally killing each other, or find some other, diplomatic way. But how

 

I've said for years there are no good guys and bad guys in this never ending conflict. Just varying levels of shittiness that just snowballs. I've pissed off a lot of sympathisizers on both sides.

 

Agreed. Both sides have always been and continue to be self-serving, uncompromising, over-reaching assholes. Now there's so much death and misery, I'm at a complete loss as to how to solve it. Other than a firm conviction that violence won't be the answer.

Israel needs to come out and say, "Hey, look. We were were really big poopy faces and I understand how unfair it was for us to show up one day, take all your stuff, drive you out of your homes, and make you second class citizens in your own land. It's just. Sheesh. You know we were really up against it for so long there, then that weird mustache guy... Ugh. We had to go somewhere."

Then the Palestinians need to say, "Yeah, dude. Like what the actual F. That was really messed up. I mean, if I think about it, the whole world really has been screwing you guys over for like ever and you really didn't have any other options - we'd have probably done the same thing in your shoes. What a crap fest this whole thing is. You know, all this has really made us lose our collective minds and do some uncool things we maybe shouldn't have done"

Then we can say "now what"

But that ain't never ever gonna happen. So more knifing raids and bombing runs. Full genocidal extinction event or bust it seems.

 

Yes. Israel just needs to root out a terrorist organization from the midst of the downtrodden, controlled, and desperate populous they contain. Then all their troubles will be solved.

 

No chance at a Palestinian state. And the 1000's that were in DC trying to rip down the fencing at the Whitehouse should be deported.

 

Ok, I'll bite. How did Israel make Palestinians second class citizens in their own land?

 

A less snarky reply:

I'm not a veteran nor do I have enough strategic / tactical insight to speak to how best to accomplish your goals. But to me, it seems impossible to militarily eliminate Hamas from the Gaza strip without completely depopulating the Gaza strip. Since that's (hopefully) a bridge too far for the West / US to allow - I think different questions have to be asked.

 

The land dispute in Israel will never be settled until the Palestinians accept they lost, Israel won, and Israel exists. The land I'm currently posting from has been under the control of several Tohono O'odham tribes, Spain, Mexico, and since 1848, the US. There have even been movements to either get the land back to Mexico or create a new state (see the Aztlan movement in the 1960s/70s). But the land belongs to the US, and we're not giving it back. Just like Israel owns their land, and they aren't going to be driven to the sea any time soon.

The Mexicans and Native Americans who still live in my area are welcome stay and live under US control. I'm glad many did. The Salt River Entertainment District on Native American land just next to Scottsdale is great, with a world-class casino, shopping, and other options like Top Golf, Go-Kart racing, etc. And I enjoy blending aspects of Mexican culture into our daily lives, like having an ofrenda for Dia del Muerto, which helped my youngest deal with the recent loss of our beloved dog.

None of this can happen in the ME if the Palestinians continue to chant and believe from the land to the sea, they will be free. It's just not reality, and doesn't allow for Israel to exist.

Not that Israel is innocent in any way, shape or form. They've antagonized the Palestinians and have treated them worse than second class citizens, which just creates the very terrorist problems they later have to deal with. It becomes a never-ending cycle with hate from both sides being the only thing that survives. And hate begets hate, which leads to violence, which leads to a series of war washing, rinsing, and repeating.

And it won't end until someone from both sides rises up and says the other side has a right to exist, and both sides and coexist peacefully. After years of wash, rinse, repeat, Arafat eventually came to understood this, and tried for peace. The Palestinian response? The Second Infadata. And the beat goes on...

 

Yeah I disagree. I don't think Israel will exist in 100 years.

 

When he says "from the river to the sea" we give him high-tech weaponry to carry it out; when some college kid says it we blacklist them from future employment

 

But what about the hostages?



Noam Dan, whose relative is captive in Gaza:
My cabinet, my prime minister, my defense minister, are implementing the 'Hannibal Doctrine' on my family, on all the citizens who were kidnapped from their homes. We grasp that we are killing our own people.