Roe v Wade Overturned

part of the gop base: barefoot, pregnant, stay home and bake cookies, have a cigar and a scotch ready for her man when he gets home from work, and don't worry her pretty little head about any topics of substance... just the way god intended .

 

Likely

Though you have no idea why the Butkers have opted for a classic traditional marriage you guys have unfairly made assumptions and ignorantly mocked him and his wife. Harrison and Isabel Butker are entitled to their own opinions and make their own decisions in how to lead their lives and I won't criticize them for doing so. Though it is beyond curious he was selected to deliver a commencement speech. Perhaps the content was not discussed or reviewed by the college's faculty or administration before the address was given.

What he encourages and praises was my own choice in life. I met Trucker in October, 1966, 4 months after graduating from PK Yonge. We married in September, 1968 while we were both in school, but living expenses necessitated I drop out and go to work to support Trucker and myself his last year. I intended to go back and finish after he graduated, but never did.

Young women reaching their majority in the 60's and 70's found themselves coming of age on the cusp of an era of tumultuous change brought about by the growing feminist movement. The introduction of 'The Pill' allowed family planning and we were told we could forge our lives to have or do most anything we set our minds to do. Many young women believed this and changed college majors, transferring from education or nursing into other more challenging fields of study to prepare for a future in the workplaces of America. Bras were burned and in some circles armpits and legs went unshaven.

Young married women were encouraged to work, told they could have it all, do it all. Popular magazines like Ladies Home Journal, McCalls and others promoted and encouraged women to work outside the home. After a group of feminists invaded and occupied the office of the editor of the 'Ladies Home Journal', shoving him off his desk and smoking his cigars, the magazine changed the emphasis of its content, shifting from traditional topics to articles encouraging women to go to work, subtly implying a woman was deficient if she was unable or unwilling to handle both roles.

Though there was social pressure to conform and work outside the home, a significant number of other young women of my generation during this time of change opted for traditional marriages. Several close friends, acquaintances I knew had little or no ambition or desire for a career. Though I originally had intended to finish my education with a degree in education, expecting I would be a teacher as my mother, grandmother and great grandmother had been.

But life interfered, we bought a house and I worked as a bookkeeper for a year or two until we decided to start our family. I wanted this more than any desire I might have had to teach a classroom full of other people's children. Our first was born in November 1972. I was happy, content - and yes, we had and have a good marriage that is now in its 56th year.

I have never regretted my decision to not finish my education and go to work, though I did work from time to time after our youngest entered high school. But being an unemployed parent allowed me, as it allows others, to volunteer in our children's schools, to take on the role of Girl Scout or Cub Scout leader, or take up the slack wherever there was a need for an extra pair of hands.

If this is what the Butkers want - good for them. But Harrison could have avoided the controversy if he had chosen another topic for his commencement address, or declined the request to give the speech.

 

Not telling them how to live, Just taking issue with a mindset that some in the country have that want to dictate to women that is how they should live. It is not 1950 any more.

 

“I think it is you, the women, who have had the most diabolic lies told to you,” Butker said. “Some of you may go on to lead successful careers in the world, but I would venture to guess that the majority of you are most excited about your marriage and the children you will bring into this world. I can tell you that my beautiful wife Isabelle would be the first to say her life truly started when she started living her vocation as a wife and as a mother.”

On one hand, he says women are being lied to but then says he thinks deep-down, the majority is more excited about their eventual marriage and children than their professional careers. Maybe those in the majority are just the ones who haven't been lied to? That seems a bit insulting if that's his point. Perhaps the young women at this school are not representative, but I am skeptical that most young women at 22 years of age are that excited about finding a husband and settling down in the very near future.

I certainly don't think it's true for young men that age. Of course, there is obviously less social pressure on men to start having kids so young - much less pressure on men to give up their professional goals and have to rely upon their spouse for support going forward.

The typical college grad has only been out of high school four years and has only recently been allowed to legally have a drink. How about we give them a little time to become financially secure and figure out what they want in life and what partner might make a good match? I'm all for women (and/or men) who want to stay at home with young children BTW. My mom was not employed when I was young and was around to volunteer, to be involved with sports stuff, etc., and spend quality time with us. I am very happy for any family that has that option if that's what they want.

To the extent there's pressure from the cultural left for young women to be independent, I sense the inverse from the cultural right. Increasingly, I see religious conservatives, anti-feminists, incels, and various types of bros who wish they had a "trad wife" half their age -- who have become more pushy in recent years about convincing young women as a group that they not only need to settle down and have kids very soon but that there's something wrong with them if they don't. For many, it's not enough if some women want that for themselves; everyone else needs to want it, too. I think about Elon, who's praised for having 11 kids. I am not knocking him, but it's interesting that he seems to get a pass about having kids with multiple women and there's little concern expressed about how much time he's able to spend with his kids. The point seems mostly about promoting traditional gender roles and procreating as much as possible. Fears about "White replacement" often correlates with this mindset as well.

Maybe those who lean left and those who lean right can consider that these are personal decisions and there's not a right and wrong answer that applies to everybody else.

 

Well said, but I would add one qualification.

First there is the issue of so-called lifestyle choice. It's always hard to know how much of any path was your choice and how much of it was pressure or serendipity or something else entirely. None of us even know that about ourselves, looking back over the years. Reality directly contradicts the far right ubermensch conception that we are all masters of our own path, which is simple a matter of informed fully empowered and egalitarian choices, if we are willing to do what is necessary.


To the extent reasonably possible, and the line is impossible to define through words, we should try to structure society to leave open options for maximum agency for each individual. Obviously there are pressures from family and social circles. But in terms of society, I think we try aim not to artificially restrict options. Obviously there's a lot of permutations within that general principle. I'm just articulating the general principle.

Second, with respect to women and the career vs. motherhood dilemma, and I am being deliberately being crudely simplistic, that is such a complicated question. There is even an Atlantic a few years ago cover piece by Anne-Marie Slaughter, who worked with Hillary Clinton, saying that you can't have it all. It's not a dilemma men usually face, and it's hard, even for those with the most favorable circumstances and resources.

But we can never assume it's simply a choice. The ability to generate one's own income gives one more flexibility and power in relationships, and make one far more difficult to exploit.

I don't mean to speak for women, but I think the desire to have full professional options and be paid equally for equal work is not simply a matter of rejecting the so-called mommy track, which is a little bit insulting and reductive. It's about having personal power and not being subject to someone else's domination and whims - being able to define relationships on their own merits, not based upon dependency and inequality of power.

Any discussion of women's lives without recognizing that basic reality is hopelessly insufficient. There's far more, but that is an unavoidable starting point.

Men like Butker tell women they are made for a role that leaves them dependent on men.

 

Very well said. This line of yours particularly resonated with me: "The ability to generate one's own income gives one more flexibility and power in relationships, and make one far more difficult to exploit."

 

I normally agree with you on everything, but not on this. He did not present this as simply homemaking is a viable and honorable option, which of course it is. I knew he was off to a bad start as soon as he addressed his remarks to the "ladies" present. I interpret what he said next as that if the women graduates were looking more forward to a career, job promotions and titles rather than marriage and children, they have been the victims of "diabolical lies." "Diabolical" was another unfortunate word choice and it interjected a theme of extremism into his comments..

I have the utmost respect for you and what you have done with your life. There are very few on this board I respect more than I do you. You made your own choices and, had your life gone on a different path, that similarly would have been your choice and not because you were victimized by "diabolical lies." Women doctors and lawyers are not victims of lies and, in case he hasn't figured it out, women are entirely capable of professional careers and partnering in raising a family. His comments were out of line and, at a graduation ceremony, totally tone deaf.

 

Relevant thread

 

To those of you who responded to my earlier post, I thank you. And I apologize for sounding off as I did. The headlines and short commentary I read on Butker and his endorsement of stay at home moms grabbed my attention. I confess I broke a cardinal rule when I commented / posted before I had watched/listened to Butker's entire message to the students at their commencement or read more about him. I was inexcusably ignorant of his extremist views and sexist attitudes.

Though I am a person of faith I do not subscribe or share belief in religious dogma and doctrines and was unaware these extremist views undergird Butker's Catholic fundamentalism and prejudiced attitudes towards Gays and others. Focused as I was, I was out of step. I thank all of you who responded for giving me the opportunity to learn something about myself I would not otherwise have learned.

 

Very well said.

Something that you briefly touched on is the struggle some women face today who want to be stay at home mothers for all the reasons you so eloquently discussed, they feel looked down upon by other women who work and have kids or who have chosen to pursue careers rather than have families.

 

Related: The Chargers Schedule release is always better than other schedule releases (fast forward to the credits if you want to see how this is related):

 

Saw that. Hilarious

 

All about the surveillance and control

 

This is what the gop wants

 

Where are the cries for freedom? Nothing but silence.

 

What I got from your long post was that the decisions that were made were your decisions. I imagine that Trucker had some input but those were your choices. I always support anyone’s right to choose the life they want to live.

 

Thanks, Dan. It was my choice. Admittedly we were in an advantageous position financially to make that decision but it was mine, not his.

My second born child is female, sandwiched between her two brothers. She was given the same academic access and encouragement as her brothers. Ironically 2 of my children attended Westminster, the same Atlanta prep school as Butker and his then girlfriend Isabelle, though 25 to 30 years before the Butkers.

My daughter earned her degree went to work, though switching jobs several times in a career that has nothing to do with what she studied - music and French (she is fluent and had intended to be an interpreter or teacher). But she went into sales and is now a successful manager of new business development for a mega world wide corporation with a multi-trillion dollar capitalization you would all immediately know. Her annual compensation package rivals that of her surgeon brother.

Though her marriage did fail, it was for other reasons than she earned more than her husband. Their split was fairly amicable and they split custody of their 12 year old son, but her life is hectic and that arrangement works to her advantage as her job requires travel from her Austin homebase to work with clients and potential clients across the U.S from New York City to company headquarters near San Francisco.

Both her father and I encouraged her to stretch herself, to broaden her interests, and it is gratifying to see what she has accomplished. When our 3 adult children threw us a 50th wedding anniversary party a few years ago, I said something about each of my 3 and my 2 daughters-in-law to the guests they invited to our celebration.

"MB in another life, she who I would want to be"... an affirmation of her accomplishments. We both both shed tears from that acknowledgement.

 

SACRAMENTO (AP) — Arizona doctors can temporarily come to California to perform abortions for their patients under a new law signed by Gov. Gavin Newsom.

Arizona doctors can come to California to perform abortions under new law signed by Gov. Newsom

California’s law is a response to Arizona’s Supreme Court last month upholding an 1864 law that bans nearly all abortions in that state. The Arizona Legislature responded by repealing the law earlier this month but that won’t take effect until later this year.

In the interim, Arizona doctors and their patients can now come to California for the procedure.

“I’m grateful for the California Legislative Women’s Caucus and all our partners for moving quickly to provide this backstop,” Newsom said. “California stands ready to protect reproductive freedom.”

 

I wonder if that is really the case. It seems to me quite often in the upper and upper middle class it is not at all uncommon for women to be stay at home moms. Of the various friends we have the wife working is more the exception than the rule.

 

That rhetoric is WAY overblown. Families should do what works best for their situation.

I’ve always worked, albeit in a very “parent” friendly profession. I have my own pension and my own social security. Life can be unpredictable and you can get divorced, widowed, or your spouse become disabled. I can support myself alone if necessary. It is very difficult to enter the workforce after being out of it for 10+ years. This doesn’t even touch women in abusive relationships.

My mother was widowed at 48 and my MIL at 41. My mom had a job with benefits and a pension. My MIL married multiple times and in the end had nothing but minimal SS.