Republicans block bill to shield people who travel out of state for abortions

Good. There should be no legal cover for murder. Period.

 

You need to learn what constitutes murder. A primer on biology might be a good start as well.

 

I don't think you know what murder is my guy.

 

How totalitarian of them

 

So an ectopic pregnancy has a zero percent chance of viability. The egg is fertilized outside the uterus. If left to grow the only outcomes are all negative for the mother, including death. Your vote is to just let the mother risk death for an unviable fertilized egg?

 

It would be great if they were as gung ho on preventing murders of schoolchildren as they were as preventing “murder” via abortion.

 

I said murder. Self-defense is not murder.

 

Okay, so let's explore self defense. What percentage likelihood of maternal death due to pregnancy should be required to claim self defense? What percentage likelihood of maternal injury (or what severity of injury) would be required to consider an abortion self defense?

 

When a person wants to commit evil, they are always looking for a pretext to do it. Jesus said murder comes from the heart. It really is an issue of the heart. And the truth is the heart is not laid bare to you or me or the state. So, murder is not something that can be defined purely based on mathematical parameters. It is not something that we can quantitatively define. It is a spiritual act. It is the disposition of the heart when the action is executed that makes an act murder.

A woman could have little regard for her son that implanted somewhere that isn't compatible with life. She could rejoice when the abortion was done because she worships her autonomy, and she is indifferent towards the death of her own son. Technically, the law in the United States may not find her guilty, but what will happen when she stands before the judgment seat of Christ? She'll be found guilty for what she was previously presumed to be innocent of before the state. She'll be found guilty there because the heart is laid bare before God. There are no motivations, thoughts, or intentions that are hidden from Him who sits on the throne. He knows all.

If the laws were written how I think they should be written, I think they could remove the baby and let it die on its own outside of the womb even if that is only for a short time. That way it at least can be said the life was preserved as long as we possibly could have preserved it. I don't think a doctor should kill it if it is possible not to.

But back to your question...there is a huge flaw in your line of reasoning. In almost every instance, it is safer to prematurely deliver a child than it is to kill it. So, the act of killing the child actually puts the mother at greater risk than simply delivering it. That fact destroys the pretext you seek. Self-defense does not work as this giant loophole by which you are going to be able to justify the entire abortion holocaust in the United States.

 

Yeah, the problem with all of that is that you are asking the state to get involved and pass judgment. You can't then dismiss questions about the law with a "But God..." if you want to advocate for law in our society. Plenty of sin isn't illegal for a reason.

That is just nonsense. Giving birth is more likely to result in a mother's death than an abortion.

The comparative safety of legal induced abortion and childbirth in the United States - PubMed.

 

Good grief, Caesar can’t get here soon enough.

 

@plank

Im pretty much against abortion but thats just my opinion. My opinion shouldnt be pushed on others. Frankly, if you become pregnant during consensual sex and you carry it long enough that there is a heart beat, you should carry that baby to term and then decide to put it up for adoption if that's what you choose. I have no sympathy nor want to hear any excuses for abortion when we're talking about consensual sex and a healthy pregnancy.

However, there is a big difference in abortion by choice and abortion out of medical necessity or special cirumstance. If a woman is raped, they should not have to deal with carrying that baby as the rape was already enough damage then you add the fact that they had to carry their attackers baby.. it's not right.

Then I think medical concerns should be a no brainer. If the mothers life is at jeopardy it should be the priority to save the mother first and foremost.

 

We have courts, and what are courts for? Courts judge lawbreakers, but in this society, according to our own laws, they are only to judge what can be proven beyond a reasonable doubt. So, the courts uphold a moral standard for human behavior. This is judging in a good sense. Murder is murder. Murderers should be prosecuted, convicted, and punished if it can be proven beyond a reasonable doubt that they actually committed the act of murder.

Interesting...I did not know that such a study existed.

I was doing a little digging about the study. Did you know that David Grimes, one of the authors of that study, is an abortion provider, and he's been providing abortions even prior to Roe vs. Wade? Did you know his company delivered abortion products to 40 countries around the world? Conflict of interest of much?

Also, I found this article about the study:

• The study was based upon annual Abortion Surveillance Reports by the Centers for Disease Control. Since reporting of abortion numbers and resulting deaths is strictly voluntary, the CDC Reports only account for about two-thirds of the abortions (and resulting maternal deaths) in the country.
• Abortion mill personnel have a very strong motivation to cover up deaths caused by their botched abortions and have been frequently caught doing so in the past. Raymond and Grimes do not account for this factor, nor do they even mention it.
• Abortion deaths are frequently reported under the complication caused by the abortion (i.e., bleeding to death or lethal infection) and not the abortion itself.
• Many women go to emergency rooms when suffering complications due to abortion hours or days later, and if they die there, their deaths are not usually attributed to abortion.2
• Abortion leads in many cases to physical and psychological complications that can lead to death or health problems many years after the abortion, and the authors do not account for this at all. For example, the rate of suicide due to childbirth issues is carefully documented in the medical literature, but suicide due to abortion is rarely linked back to abortion by state agencies.2
• Raymond and Grimes fail to account for the horrible crimes committed against women precisely because abortion is legal, easy to obtain, and often paid for by taxpayer funds. Dozens of pregnant women are murdered by their boyfriends and husbands every year simply because they refuse to obtain abortions.3 This factor alone would greatly increase the hazard of abortion quoted by Raymond and Grimes.

​

Is Abortion Safer than Giving Birth? (hli.org)

 

Only proves that all the talk of leaving it to the states was a lie. The Christofascists don't want to leave it to the states either.

 

Oof.

So if a mother dies in childbirth is the child guilty of murder, or at a minimum manslaughter?

 

Nope. Self-defense just means you have a right to protect your own life if something is a serious threat to kill you.

 

Which, again returns us to the question: what is the threshold for self defense or murder? What likelihood of death and/or harm allows a woman to claim self defense?

No, that is not a conflict of interest. It is quite common for people to research procedures that they perform as doctors in their practice. Cardiologists are who you expect to research heart issues.

Easy to adjust for this issue. Even if it was unadjusted, the result would exist.

First, reference to "abortion mill" shows that this isn't an on-the-level scientific critique. Also, this shows a pretty dramatic misunderstanding of how deaths are recorded.

True of all deaths, including deaths from giving birth.

They would be if it was actually a complication from the abortion.

Okay. That doesn't at all address the danger to the mother.

Because that isn't caused by abortions. They also don't include murders due to the fact that somebody got an abortion. What a weird critique.