Has it ever occurred to you that you aren’t an expert on everything either? If you can’t argue a point without name calling then perhaps you need to step away from the issue. This is a very difficult issue, and it is made exponentially worse because most people seem to want to make it an ideological issue and don’t pursue the issue in good faith. Of course many of those on the right are exploiting and exaggerating the issue, and even people like Bari Weiss are carving out an identity for themselves by taking a side in the issue. Then we have those on the left, like you, who are determined to make it a civil rights issue, not a medical issue, and shout down anybody who has different evidence to the contrary. While I’m not an expert I have enough experience where I think there is some truth in both sides of the issue As a parent with 2 kids with different mental health issues I too get angry when people who have no experience tell us what to do regarding health care. Mental health is a difficult issue. People like Greg Abbot and those banning all gender affirming care can go straight to hell as far as I’m concerned. F them. By the same token I’ve seen and known some teens who inexplicably decided they were trans. In pretty much all cases there were other mental health factors, such as autism, bipolar, etc. There is a heavy overlap between other mental illness and trans declaration in this age group. Studies bear this out. People who are trans are disproportionately autistic. So when my autistic kid ponders if he may be a girl, or trans, or what have you, do I take it seriously? Not really. I’ve seen at least one teen declare himself trans and a year later changed his mind. It makes perfect sense that people with mental health issues and struggling with identity issues start questioning everything and gravitate to an alternative like thinking they are trans. In Europe and UK they were historically ahead of us on this issue but now they are somewhat backtracking as more evidence is gathered. It used to be that those who were trans often were young boys, and exhibited, signs pretty early. Now it has turned into mostly teenage girls who suddenly decide they are trans. Some of these people may actually be gay. I’ve posted links for all of these in the past but I won’t waste my time because you are so heavily invested in this identity issue you just ignore them. People like you are just as guilty as people like Greg Abbot for leading people to get suboptimal and unnecessary care. Chew on that a bit. It can be true that some people are trans and deserve the appropriate medical care, compassion and the same rights as anybody else. It can also be true that in the hysteria to find the next civil rights issues that some young people are being unnecessarily or improperly treated because they don’t want to be shouted down by people like you.
It is very much a civil rights issue. If it was a medical issue, we'd be listening to the leading medical associations, the consensus among doctors, and be banning these treatments for everybody if they're unsafe. We're doing none of the above. Instead, these laws target one specific group and strip them of rights the rest of us have. And yep, it has occurred to me that I'm not an expert. That's why I'm deferring to the medical experts! Of course not. Should the government be able to force you to transition your child if they so much as ponder that they're transgender? No. By the same token, the government should not be able to stop a child from receiving gender-affirming care when the child, family, and doctors all agree it is the best course of action. We have medical experts who take this stuff very seriously. They don't start a child on puberty blockers or hormones without taking the steps to ensure it is the best treatment and the child actually needs it. Misguided criticism. I haven't led or forced anybody to do anything. I am arguing for choice and the government staying out of it. However, it is worth noting that studies undermine the claims of rapid-onset gender dysphoria and the claims that there's a significant rate of regret for people who chose to transition. Support: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0022347621010854 What does the scholarly research say about the effect of gender transition on transgender well-being? | What We Know That's a silly accusation. People like me aren't shouting down or bullying kids. We're fighting government attempts to prevent them from obtaining treatment they want and need. I don't know anybody in this fight who believes pressuring kids into getting treatment is acceptable. It should be their choice in consultation with medical experts and their families.
Medical experts are humans and aren’t immune from societal biases Here are some examples in Europe where they are tweaking their approach on young people and trans issues. https://www.usnews.com/news/best-co...e-rethinking-gender-affirming-care-for-minors https://www.forbes.com/sites/joshua...ch-to-gender-affirming-care-among-minors/amp/ The real story on Europe’s transgender debate
Okay? So what's the plan here? Ignore the consensus of people who are experts because they're too "biased"? And yet, none of them are restricting it like Republicans are. As I've said, let the medical experts figure it out. We don't need politicians deciding what treatments are and aren't allowed.
Yes, Europe Is Restricting “Gender-Affirming Care” “Yes, Sweden, Finland, and the U.K. still allow a tiny subset of minors with gender issues access to puberty blockers and cross-sex hormones. But they are doing so under tight restrictions and against the findings of their own systematic reviews—or, as in the case of Finland, in full recognition that this constitutes medical experimentation on minors. A good case can be made that Republicans who seek to ban these interventions entirely are being more faithful to the findings of the European evidence reviews. The real debate between red states in the U.S. and European health authorities is not about whether there is good evidence for pediatric gender transition. There isn’t. Rather, the debate is about whether children as young as eight with a strong desire for “gender affirming” drugs have the ability to understand fully and give informed consent to the long-term consequences of these interventions—and even if they can, whether this justifies enlisting them in an uncontrolled medical experiment.”
How are people who are seeking to ban the treatment entirely being "more faithful" to other countries who are still allowing these treatments? C'mon now. Yes, there is. There's actually a lot of good evidence supporting gender-affirming care. Here's a Cornell University review of 72 studies: What does the scholarly research say about the effect of gender transition on transgender well-being? | What We Know "This search found a robust international consensus in the peer-reviewed literature that gender transition, including medical treatments such as hormone therapy and surgeries, improves the overall well-being of transgender individuals. The literature also indicates that greater availability of medical and social support for gender transition contributes to better quality of life for those who identify as transgender." Can an eight year old understand fully and give informed consent to the long-term consequences of chemo when treating pediatric cancer? Should we deny them treatment on that ground? Or do we trust the child, parents, and medical experts to determine the best course of action? By the way, doctors use these same drugs to treat other disorders like precocious puberty in kids as young as eight years old. If these drugs are so dangerous for a child that age and they can't give informed consent, why don't these gender-affirming care bans target those treatments? Why aren't you opposing those treatments? Puberty Blockers: What You Should Know | Cedars-Sinai
What do you consider an allowable "tiny subset"? There are 74,000,000 children in America and the number of kids receiving puberty blockers, according to most current stats available, is 1,390.... You guys act this is a big deal... Also, when you say that children as young as 8 can't don't fully understand long term consequences, you are ignoring that the parents are the ones actually making the decision. Number of transgender children seeking treatment surges in U.S. (reuters.com)
Enlightening articles. I defer to experts in almost everything, e.g., Covid vaccinations, so I suppose I should with respect to gender affirming care. But, is there any age where the more extreme measures would be inappropriate, and, if so, is there data supporting that? Also, what does it mean to be transgender? Is that irrevocable in young people?
Yes. Doctors act according to the guidelines of their profession, which do place restrictions on certain aspects of gender-affirming care, particularly the most extreme measures (like bottom surgery). My preference is simply to let doctors continue to refine these guidelines as more and more studies are conducted. If a doctor acts in a negligent way, a patient can hold them responsible by suing and by filing a complaint with the relevant board of medicine. I'd define it as personally identifying with the opposite sex of your biological sex and desiring to live as that sex. Is it irrevocable? Not sure what you mean. The vast majority of gender-affirming treatments are reversible, if that's what you're asking. Do people ever detransition? Yes. But the rates are very low (ranging from 0.3% to 3.8%, depending on the study).
I mean is identification with the sex opposite your biological sex irrevocable? I'm assuming with this question that the identification is emotional and might not be cast in stone. Maybe I'm thinking too much about my own youth in the early teens. I seem to have been confused about everything until I was 19, though I was fairly confident I wasn't gay or wanted to be a woman. BTW, how do gay and transgender differ, if at all?
For people who are legitimately transgender, yes. It is innate and inherent. How do gay and transgender differ? One (gay) deals with sexual orientation (who you are attracted to), while the other (transgender) deals with gender identity (how you perceive yourself). EDIT: Here's a video of a trans person talking about her experiences that may help:
IOW, you believe what you want to, and reject empiricism. Pretty much the Right these days. We cannot support our worldview with reason, so we reject reason
I may be obtuse here, but why wouldn't you give gender affirming drugs, etc. to the boys or girls that are actually what sex they were born as? If you think you need to gender affirm. I mean if you were born as a male, when it comes to gender affirming assistance shouldn't that be steps to make you "more boy" and vice versa for the girls? I'm not trying to start a diatribe on being born gay, trans are not necessarily gay. And I don't think being gay, means you want to be the other sex, you are attracted to the other sex.
They do all that stuff and its not controversial. If your cisgender kid is not developing in the 'right' way, you can get all sorts of hormone or cosmetic treatments to fit in better with their age group.
You make it sound that affirming that your born male child is a male, or your born female is a female is somehow wrong? Yet, do you support giving the opposite affirming drugs?
I didn't say that at all. I just said stuff like giving your kid growth hormones because they are shorter than their peers or doing treatments so girls get less hair in certain places isn't remotely controversial. I dont need to be involved in those decisions, and neither should busybodies who want to tell parents/doctors what they must do with their kids who are trans, non-binary or gay or whatever.
I tend to agree. The only place I waver is making these decisions that are not reversable for younger children. Yet I do want the parents' rights to be the final say. Not sure how you can have both though!
This is kind of a wishy-washy argument. If you give your kid growth hormones, hair removal or use a deviated septum to do cosmetic surgery that isn't really "reversible." Also its not like kids are getting bottom/top surgery or talked into stuff right away so I dont think this is really a problem. This whole thread is about a woman who tried to make that claim and basically lied lol.
