Police shot 11 year boy after he called 911 to report a domestic disturbance

Maybe the 2A "misinterpreters" can chime in about who needs to be armed in order to prevent this from happening again.

 

Glad this wasnt Texas where the legally armed kid would have been blown into his eternal home.

What are we doing?

Shooting kids at 4am?

This better have more to it or the cop should do serious time.

 

One reason I don't "default" to the racist narrative. Of course some racist cops abuse their authority and those types need to be actively and proactively rooted out with great consequence but there is another phenomenon that isn't addressed in my opinion.

Cops overwhelmingly deal with people at their worst. You start to get fatigued from dealing with dregs of society and start to look at everyone the same. It happens in EMS to a degree as well. People may get offended but it doesn't lessen the reality of it. You have to actively work against that mindset and the fact is very few do across all fields. It becomes us vs them and the snowball gets out of control too often. Nuance and discretion goes out the door and as the saying goes...when all you have is a hammer everything looks like a nail.

 

it is why I couldn't work for the gubmn't. It is a go along, get along system where obedience is rewarded and initiative for improvement is squashed. It is all about seniority instead of quality

 

they are well funded but so much of the funding goes to the retirement system and senior officers running up big salaries in their last years to pad their retirements. same for fire. people retiring at 50 - 55 with $100k + pensions and living to 85 with all the COLA's and health insurance costs that go with it strain the budgets and the lower ranking employees are where the costs are cut to fund the senor level benefits. I know of at least three retired cops in my neighborhood that I know of that are all in their early 50's and live a very nice lifestyle if their trucks/boats/houses are any indication.

same with our school system, very well-funded but so much money goes to admin and not to teachers. it only encourages the good teachers to get on an admin path and out of the classroom.

 

This isn't true. Not across the board anyway. The retirement system has little to no bearing on staffing and capital funding. We agree on a lot of things but I disagree with your continued knock on the retirement system if a pension is well funded. Not all pensions are the same. Not by a long shot.

The senior officers part has truth to it though.

 

I don't doubt what you say is true, and burn out is real. Anecdotally (I have no stats for this), it seems like most of the videos I see where a cop is really escalating things the most is with younger cops. Maybe it takes awhile to weed out the bad personality fits. Maybe it's fear and lack of experience. Maybe it's testosterone. I also note that many look like they're on steroids. I feel like when the older, chubby Sergeant shows up, things often get a little calmer. Maybe I'm just becoming bias to the older guys at this point in my life!

 

I can't speak to statistics for age groups stepping out of line. I'm generally pro LEO but there was definitely a good Ole boy system in the past that probably sheltered a lot of older cops as well. There is a tendency for young cops,fire, medics etc to have one year on the job going on 30 syndrome that part is true.

Again, there is an overall lack of training on how to not feed into adrenaline, de-escalation, and mental health specifically towards working against compassion syndrome.

We had a call the other day. Medical emergency. Show up to a pretty rough house with an expensive car in the driveway. Knock on the door and get greeted by a guy yelling at us for knocking on his door. His Tennant called 911 but he didn't care. Berated us while we were treating the patient. House is a mess. 4 kids 3 of whom were very sweet but clearly had the odds against them. 3 huge dogs kenneled barking the whole time, no idea if they ever get out. Dad continues to yell but eventually goes into his room. A half naked toddler walks out on this filthy floor and hugs my leg before grabbing my finger. I had to gently move away from the kid so as not to piss the already agitated dad off.

Can't call DCF because we've tried that before and the fact is the kids were well fed the house was climatized and other than a filthy house and a nasty set of parents there was nothing to report.

Next two calls were treating a burglary suspect fleeing and then another for a hit and run. There were other very unsatisfying calls I won't go into that same shift. We see far far less than police do and yet it's still a struggle to stay grounded and try not to pre judge everyone.

I'm not a cop but I worked with them at another department and our calls overlap in my current one. Public service is draining but there isn't a whole lot of support to keep people away from the pitfalls of the job.

With all of that said, none of that is an excuse for people to act unethically and I don't mean for it to be interpreted as such in any way.

 

What I don't agree with is when cops mess up badly and are allowed to quietly retire and keep the benefits.

Why are officers allowed to retire the day they are expected to be fired and keep full benefits? I'm not asking that rhetorically, I'm wondering if there is a real reason.

 

the county/city budget is a pie. a piece of that pie goes to the retirement system independent of what the staff contributes. as people live longer and health care costs increase, the piece of the pie that is required to keep the pension funded gets bigger. here is one small example where the pension costs to the city rose 35% in a matter of three years. if the piece of pie required to fund the retirement was smaller, it would leave more of the pie for wages.

does the muni you work for contribute to your pension plan? how much does that cost the muni per year? is it fully funded or is the muni having to deficit fund it to account for bad assumptions (ie 12% expected rate of return, average lifespan, medical costs underestimated)

With Police Pension Expenses Up 35 Percent From 2018-20, Coral Springs Considers Updating Police Pension Plan | Coral Springs, FL News TAPinto

Coral Springs’ costs for paying the pensions of police officers has steadily been rising from $9.1 million in 2018 to $12.4 million in 2020 – up 35 percent, according to budget documents.

that is $3M less they have for salaries.

and here is short snippet about how underfunded and overly expensive pension plans are straining muni budgets

Underfunded Police Pensions Strain U.S. Cities - HGExperts.com

The financial burdens presented by police pension plans are drawing national attention. Municipal retirement funds for police and firefighters have set aside only a median 71 cents for every dollar needed to cover future liabilities, according to a recent Wall Street Journal article titled “Police Pensions Put Cities in Bind.” Nationwide, police pension plans are reportedly underfunded by more than $80 billion.

Public pension plans generally, including city plans covering the police force and other employees, are not governed by the Employee Retirement Income Security Act of 1974 (ERISA), which applies to private industry plans. Nor are municipal plans covered by the Pension Benefit Guaranty Corporation (PBGC), the federal agency responsible to protect private sector pension plans.

In recent years, data has revealed an ever-increasing gap between state pension fund assets and net pension liabilities, or the money and benefits owed to public employees. According to The Pew Charitable Trust, the deficit for pension systems throughout America reached $1.1 trillion in 2015, growing by $157 billion from 2014. The current state of police pension funds reflects the larger issue of significantly underfunded state pensions plaguing municipalities and local governments across the U.S.

Municipal governments are responsible for police pensions, which were the first retirement programs in the U.S. that extended beyond military forces.Law enforcement officers are widely respected for their role in protecting society, making it politically difficult for cities to cut pensions or benefits. Historically, when municipal budgets were tight, cities would expand pension promises rather than provide raises. This was a way to keep the peace with police unions while avoiding an immediate increase in spending.

 

here are salaries for fire in a small area in SW Florida that has very few fires and all new construction so less risk compared to big cities with old buildings.
asst chiefs are making $205k per year
division chiefs 160k per year
beginning salaries are around $45k but they have so many making more than $100k per year it is ridiculous. too top heavy

Fire Rescue District of Estero Salaries - Florida (govsalaries.com)

can't find comparable for police but I doubt it is much different where sr employees are making big $$ compared to the new employees. perhaps if the pay distribution was closer it would afford more $$ to pay better starting salaries

 

Shoot em up, Drag em out, Raw-Hide...........

 

Employees cost. Pension management has historically been neglected during the better performing years by ploticians who then pass the blame onto the pension fund and its members when the economy takes a hit. In the worst years post the 08 crash our private fund was rated a B+ (FRS was still an A rated performer) yet all we heard about was unfunded liability, in part, a theoretical number because pensions don't work like that. Everyone doesn't retire at the same time so as members retire then die new members begin the process all over again. My plan is a 10% contribution with a 3% multiplier. We are high call volume so we went back to 20 and out because the city realized their mistake in pushing it to 25 when they gutted us in 2012 at impass. Surrounding agencies neglected their pensions in my area and costs got out of control for a while before reeling them in at the expense of the employees. Where does the money go when pensions out perform their actuarial expectations in good years?

So what kind of employee do you expect to get from a 56 hour worker at making $10.57 an hour while offering a 401k? Everything anti pension always disregards an employees leanest years grinding out a marathon in hopes they retire and live long enough to enjoy some retirement. The older generation of retirees cycled out as I was coming in around 2010. Several passed within 5 to 10 years of retirement. What do you expect the costs to fund departments will be if you compensate them up front during their careers in straight pay and bennies?

In any event, when departments are dealing with shortages to the tune of 15 to 30 positions while handling the same workload, budgets aren't the issue. They are getting services for a fraction of the cost if they were properly staffed to begin with.

Edit: when the economy is good nobody cares about well funded pensions while the private sector is making money hand over fist. When things turn, the same modest weekly paycheck the public sector takes home that contractors and other industries scoff at is suddenly a target of animosity.

 

are you saying that your entire pension is employee funded with no contribution or guarantee from the muni?

my point is that, on average, the starting salaries could be much higher if the pension benefits cost the muni less.

performance in better years is offset by lack of performance during lean years but the actuaries' making assumptions of average 8% or higher were wrong but if they assumed lower, the muni's would change investment advisors. now the muni's are having to deficit fund to keep them solvent or keep the unfunded liability from growing. that addl funding going to pensions and top heavy salary structures limits the ability to raise starting salaries. your individual department may be different if it has its own retirement plan

 

Of course the cities fund it. Of course there are costs. The cities and counties in well managed funds have benefitted from pensions. The city in our case has studied the costs in closing our fund several times and would do so in a heartbeat if it were to their benefit but they can't because of the costs to do so and they know what that would mean on the front end. Politicians kick the can down the curb when it comes to costs. What do you think is a reasonable wage without a pension for police/fire services? What will that cost? If buccess is hiring at 17 to 23 plus an hour what should police and fire make?

I'll also add this. I made my bed and I have to lie in it. Knowing what I know now I would not have chosen the same career path for multiple reasons. I'm generally accepting of debate about pay and benefits but it is difficult to listen arguments from people (not you) who have little to any direct experience with working these fields. There are golden ticket agencies that pay well, aren't very busy and have great retirements. Most pay poorly to average while exposing employees to inordinate responsibilities and liabilities in volatile situations that expose them to realities most of the general public don't see. The tradeoff hopefully is a secure retirement should one be fortunate enough to make it there.

I witnessed 3 deaths in less than 16 hours during a 24 hour shift last week. One person was totally oblivious as they asked us calmly if their spouse was ok while we were intubating, pushing meds and doing compressions on them in their living room. Another was a vehicle vs pedestrian and yet another was a motorcyclist struck by a car.

Again, cops have similar stories. What is the pay range that is also affordable for a municipality to pay people to work in those conditions and also leave them enough to contribute to some 401 k that will never be enough to retire on alone?

 

One more comment I feel is very pertinent to this discussion.

We once hired a medic from an ems department who obtained their fire certification. They were coddled from the get go and kept close to admin because to be kind, they were well known throughout the area for other reasons. They were moved to another station with a very no nonsense lieutenant. We ran a fire shortly after and they panicked in the house and wouldn't move so the LT pushed them out a low lying window. They quit shortly after being cleared to return to the line. Another dept hired the individual and then forced them to resign shortly after but left her on hireable status. In fact the county sponsored this individual to become a cop and then hired them as a deputy.

The same individual posted a tik tok of themselves sobbing to the back track of a screaming sad person telling a story about personal trauma. It was sad and disturbing. This individual is still employed as a gun carrying officer. Does this sound like someone who should be placed in a high stress situation with a gun?

There are multiple accounts similar of individuals who have no business in this kind of work. Where is the accountability from above?

 

If you work for a company in the private sector and pay into a retirement fund for 30 years can the company fire you and take your retirement benefits away?
I'm just asking, what you are saying just doesn't make sense to me. You paid into that fund over the years what would give them the right to take it away from you?

 

The state (FL) didn’t have any employee contributions until maybe 15 years ago?? Then it went to 3%
Counties were historically on the State system, cities a mix based on size.

If you were terminated prior to retirement, you would receive any employee contributions plus interest, but none of the state’s contributions into your pension.

Now if you were in drop, you were already retired, so it would be up to a pension board to see if you violated (convicted) one of the listed crimes under the color of your authority. If they took back the pension, you would still be refunded any employee contributions.

For the past ten years, many public sector jobs have been suffering from very shallow applicant pools. Who wants to deal with Ken and Karen.

That said, hiring practices with thorough backgrounds and training are key. As said above, training costs money due to the relief factor involved. Good training, taking it serious and professionalism all start at the top.

 

I'm ignorant to the topic, but it's my understanding that if you retire in good standing with a pension, you get paid until you kick the bucket, whereas a 401k would be limited to what you and your employer contributed.