Netanyahu tells Israel ‘We are at war’ after Hamas launches an unprecedented attack, killing at leas

You keep picking time-frames that are most favorable. Starting AFTER the Rabin assassination till the end of the Clinton administration, you have a strong argument, although even that has Baruch Goldstein and the culture that led to the assassination. I'm still not even sure Ehud Barak could have really delivered if Arafat said yes, though he was sincere. It's not like the IDF removing illegal settlements was just accepted.

My point is, there are significant parts of both political cultures that don't want peace. The Israeli side of that has been very intentionally creating the conditions that they then claim prevent them from pursuing peace.

The other side would do the same, with far more blood, if they could, as the just showed. Point is, the Israeli side, as a whole, given changing demographics, wants dominion over all the land, and has not wanted two states, even if the claim they would pursue it with a stronger negotiating partner that they keep weakening.

No easy answer, and right now all this is irrelevant. Hamas wants nothing but blood. There is no negotiating with that group. If they were ever redeemable, they're not now. They must have no role going forward if possible. But how we got here is more complex.

 

Almost happened. IIRC, had to remain demilitarized with Israeli observation post but under Syrian sovereignty otherwise.

 

I have assumed as much and looked for that but have not seen. Where did you read that? I saw the reference to "all domains" so I assumed.

Edited to add. I now saw your earlier response. Makes sense.

 

Cherry picking timelines? I identified two specific offers-- 1967 for the West Bank, Gaza and Sinai. The answer was no.

Instead, the PLO developed its plan of phases.

1999. There was a negotiated deal. All Arafat had to do was sign his name, but he did not because his people would have killed him. They don't want it.

What happened after the 1999 deal was not signed. An Intifada. War in place of Peace.

Israel made a deal with Sadat. Gave Sinai back.

2005: Unilaterally gave back Gaza. Left infrastructure intact. Gazans destroyed the infrastructure. And they chose Hamas-- which is sworn to reject any peace agreement.

They complain about Israel changing facts on the ground. What are they offering? What is their plan? The 1967 borders? They rejected that deal.

And it is empirically BS

When have the Palestinians ever offered peace? Hamas expressly rejects it and calls for the death of Jews everywhere.

The Palestinians do not want a two state solution.

 

I could push back on every one of those facts, each of which is at least partly accurate, standing alone. But all of that is irrelevant now. No desire to go this route

 

I support a two state solution if we can find a partner in peace. Israel is 75 years old, and still no one. And it’s always been one reason after another. Always a new reason that replaces the older reason. And always Israel’s fault. Here is reality: Israel for centuries was not a nation. It was ruled by the Ottomans. Then it was part of the British Mandate. After the creation of Israel in 1948, it was attacked. Repeatedly. I discussed the history from 1967 to 2005 above. Yet Israel has been defamed as the occupiers of Palestinian lands— a country that never has existed and has been rejected by the Palestinians repeatedly. Yet, after 2005, it is all Israel’s fault? Does Jordan want the West Bank back? Does Egypt want Gaza? Syria wants Golan, but thankfully Israel holds it. Not Hezbollah. Have you seen the line of sight from Golan into the Galilee? The countries that held these lands in 1967 abandoned them.

 

It’s an area that in modern history wasn’t really countries. What preceded the formation of Israel and the Palestinian territories was an area administered by Great Britain referred to as “Mandatory Palestine.”

Great Britain administered it under a “Mandate” from the League of Nations when the territory was transferred from the Ottoman Empire after the Ottoman’s defeat in World War I.

Prior to that it had been Ottoman territory since the 1500s, and was part of a Sultanate before that.

 

It’s not like israel didn’t get any help in Stuxnet either

 

But didn’t. And the sticking point was recognizing Israel.

 

Maybe he was. I don’t see the connection between deliberately sharing power and seizing complete power. Someone would have to walk me through that.

 

Sounds like Egypt should stop being a back seat driver then. They don’t care about the land or the people.

 

From what I have read, it seems that Net was too focused on expanding settlements on the West Bank in areas where Israel should not ahve been building settlements. He was placating or encouraging the far right, ultra-orthodox and left the area around Gaza exposed in doing so

Egypt warned Israel days before Hamas struck, US committee chairman says - BBC News

An Egyptian intelligence official told the Associated Press news agency this week that Cairo had repeatedly warned the Israelis "something big" was being planned from Gaza.

"We have warned them an explosion of the situation is coming, and very soon, and it would be big. But they underestimated such warnings," said the official, who spoke on condition of anonymity.

The Cairo official said Israeli officials had played down the threat from Gaza, instead focusing on the West Bank.

According to the Financial Times, quoting two unnamed officials familiar with the matter, there was no hard intelligence of a specific attack.

 

Jordan, Syria (the Golan Heights) and Egypt (Gaza and Sinai). Sinai has been returned to Egypt and Israel offered Gaza to Egypt. Egypt declined.

 

Bens history predates 1948. What I told you was the result of the 1967 war. You can go back from 1948 almost 2000 years to the Roman conquest to find a nation there. Essentially, Israel has always been colonized. And, there were atrocities against Jews there before the state of Israel. Most significantly in modern times in 1929.

 

A beheading babies joke? Let’s not.

 

Speaking of which:

Israeli official says government cannot confirm babies were beheaded in Hamas attack | CNN

 

To be fair, for centuries, Jews lived side by side with Muslims under Ottoman rule and were integrated into society and did well. But things changed. For example, There was a thriving Jewish presence in Iran since the destruction of the first Temple. When the Shah was deposed and the Mullahs took power, almost the entire community had to leave. There are many examples of this. This while Jews were forced to live in ghettos and subjected to pogroms throughout Europe for centuries. Jews have wandered from country to country for millennia, always wary of when things will change. Which is why we pay attention to the anti-Semites and how they are welcomed by politicians. And it isn’t a liberal versus conservative issue.

 

Tlaib's parents are Palestinian immigrants. She is anti-Israel. There is no debating that. But maybe we drop your extended family in the middle of Palestine and you can go on record with strong condemnation of Hamas specifically? that woman is balancing a lot. I have some sympathy for her and her family even if I dont share nor agree with her animosity towards Israel - nor many of her ideas.