Netanyahu tells Israel ‘We are at war’ after Hamas launches an unprecedented attack, killing at leas

Is it excessive? Maybe. I don’t know. Collateral damage numbers I’ve seen are similar to other wars. The Gazan quoted numbers are likely bullshit.

The question is how many Israeli soldiers would they sacrifice in order to be more surgical in their efforts?

Also is not as if the Gazan population are innocent bystanders.

 

perhaps. What is the alternative? Just leave Hamas be?

 

There are any number of alternatives and ways to delegitimize Hamas without killing anyone, its just that they aren't palatable to a Zionist/nationalist government that has rejected a two state solution and has the blank check backing of a world super power.

 

what are they?

The opposition in Israel also supports the war.

Palestinians are not interested in a two state solution

 

Their goal is two-fold: (a) return their people from captivity; and (b) remove Hamas as the governing power in Gaza and ensure its citizens are safe (so, for example, that they don’t have to worry being near bomb shelters at all hours of the day and night).

I can appreciate those who think the goals are unattainable, but those are the goals. I’ve yet to read any realistic argument or plan by our experts on this Board as to how Israel can meet its objectives through any other path than the path of War. As someone who abhors War, I sure wish there was reasonable, realistic alternative to return the Israeli ( and other country’s) hostages and to ensure the safety of the Israeli border.

As for “creating generations of terrorists,” I can only surmise you’re unaware of the “education” of Palestinian youth, since they are literally indoctrinated at birth that Israel is the Great Evil that must be destroyed and removed.

 

The PLA in the West Bank were very supportive of a two state solution. The West Bank, where Hamas enjoyed 11% support until Israel began targeting Palestinians in Gaza. Now Hamas could probably get elected in the West Bank. But please refrain from lumping in Palestinians with Hamas. They are not the same. Also, Netanyahu is not interested in a two state solution, which is a big reason Hamas was allowed to exist in the first place.

 

Nenatyahu is nearing the end of his political stranglehold. That process has already started. He is finished as soon as the War is over, if not before.

 

- There's a one state solution where the Israelis abandon Zionism, expands it borders to incorporate the occupied territories and Gaza, everyone is an equal citizen. We'll call this the least likely, since a sort of semi-fascist nationalism / Jewish supremacy is the norm in Israel now. I would say the majority of Israelis view Arabs as a lower form of life, particularly those of backgrounds native to the Mid East. Israel is a pretty racist country!
- There's a two state solution where Israel has their Zionist state, and they cede land they control/occupy to a Palestinian state (Israel has succeeded in destroying supporters to this in Israel and Gaza, and the American government has more or less not pressed them) Could it be revived? Well, we could actually apply pressure to Israel and find out!
- Israel simply negotiates the release of the hostages without war, probably exchanging Palestinian prisoners. Return to status quo, Iron Dome policy and better intel (made impossible because Bibi was exposed as incompetent with their security failure and complacency - he needed war/revenge to make him look strong)

There are plenty of variations of these things, but if you want to argue Israeli politics makes these things almost impossible, fair enough, but at what point are we bound to support them to pursue their designs? I cant tell Israel what to do, I can only tell our government not to give them the weapons and cover to pursue a campaign of mass murder.

 

Implicit here is that Netanyahu will do anything and everything to extend the war indefinitely

 

I understand what is implicit, and my best guess is that nevertheless, Netanyahu is nearing his political end. Watch what is happening internally over there. When the focus turns turns to post-War, he serves purpose. And Israel is looking post-War. Here’s an interesting little piece of info that shows Israel talking with its neighbors for mutual cooperation.

 

As would Yahya Sinwar, the leader of Hamas.
https://www.cnn.com/2024/06/11/midd...r-hamas-ceasefire-talks-intl-latam/index.html
Hamas leader believes civilian deaths are ‘necessary sacrifices’ in Israeli war, leaked letters show

 

Indeed. So why are we giving support to a guy with the policies as Hamas?

 

The number of times people have said this and the number of times he's bounced back should give anyone pause about writing his epitaph.

 

Although Biden hasn't been successful he has been trying to pressure Netanyahu into accepting a ceasefire and by the way the current roadblock to the recently proposed ceasefire isn't Israel it's Hamas.
Israel says Hamas rejects key elements of US ceasefire plan for Gaza

 

Tagging on to this:

 

Of course they are going to blame them. Are they going to say they are rejecting it or slow walking it? If Biden isnt going to use a stick, then Israel can play this game where they say the other side is the obstacle for not agreeing on their terms.

 

Most other conflicts are fought against a government and nation-state, not a terrorist organization. That has to impact the way it is fought, and influence expectations of what constitutes "winning." Which clearly will influence tolerance for civilian collateral damage.

And yes, it certainly seems excessive at this point. Simply the civilian deaths. That leaves unmentioned so far the nearly 2 million people displaced and the over 1 million expected to be impact by hunger or famine.

No need to rehash the back and forth on Gazan population as "innocent bystander" or not, when obviously the last election was almost 20 years ago.

One of the questions is how many more Israeli soldiers would die to be more "surgical" in their fighting. That's assuming a specific tactic.

The bottom line is it's pretty reasonable to think that 10s of thousands of civilian deaths thus far and climbing, in order to achieve, well, a non-existant or counterproductive goal is simply too many.

 

LOL. Weird that you hold the posters on this board to a higher standard than the government of Israel.

What you should have said was this ; "I’ve yet to read any realistic argument or plan."

 

Blinken is making statements that Hamas is moving the goal posts now on an agreement.

 

They are deemed a terrorist organization but they are the governing body, elected by Gazans 15 years ago. As they say elections have consequences.

excessive compared to what? From my perspective yes they could manage the impacts more humanely but if I’m in there perspective - priority #1 is wiping out Hamas and if anybody that supports them gets in their way? Sorry.

If 6 million people of my tribe were exterminated within the last 80 years, and I had neighbors who were hellbent on destroying me, my perspective would be a bit different.

There is little doubt the attacks enjoyed wide support among Gazans. To the extent Hamas wasn’t widely popular it was because they were shifty at governance not because they wanted to destroy Israel. The most popular political figure in Gaza, prior to the attacks is in an Israeli jail for terrorism.

Yes there are 10s of thousands of deaths. Probably about 10000 Hamas fighters killed, perhaps more. As to counterproductive goal? That’s your opinion. We pretty much wiped out Al Queda and ISIS - they still exist but are a shell of themselves.