Netanyahu tells Israel ‘We are at war’ after Hamas launches an unprecedented attack, killing at leas

I didn't claim that there wasn't persecution anywhere in the Arabic world. In fact, there were definitely some instances of ethnic cleansing in some countries. Certainly wouldn't be a first for Jewish population. But he is claiming that they were ethnically cleansed everywhere in the Arabic/North African world due to a fall in population. I said let's start in Morocco based on where the video started. Is the shift in country right from the start because you can't provide any examples of ethnic cleansing in Morocco, despite the claims of the tweet that this is what happened?

 

I sent the tweet, I didn’t research the tweet. I’ve now sent a more authoritative article explaining things. And, do you really think the analysis changes if Morocco was welcoming, but much of the Middle East was not?

 

And now I’ve spent less than five minutes doing quick research and, sadly, Morocco persecuted the Jews following the birth of Israel.

“In 1954 and 1955, Morocco’s Jews were attacked by pro-nationalist forces in Casablanca, Rabat, Mazagan and Petitjean, with numerous deaths and injuries. Throughout the country property was seized, and arsonists attacked Jewish schools. In the five years following Israel’s independence, around 30,000 Jews made aliya; the numbers increased in subsequent years.

Historian Heskel M. Haddad wrote, “The major cause of the Jewish exodus from Morocco is the two pogroms that occurred in 1948 and 1953. Within a few years, several thousand Moroccan Jews immigrated to Israel. But mass immigration of Jews from Morocco occurred in 1954 when it became clear that France intended to grant Morocco full independence. Tens of thousands of Jews left Morocco, thereby betraying the typical anxiety of Jews in an independent Arab country.”

The ‘Nakba’ of Morocco’s Jews

 

The point that you made is that we shouldnt be throwing around the term ethnic cleansing. Yes, the fact that, in the name of intellectual honesty, you posted somebody doing exactly that does change things considerably. There were places that were welcoming, places that were not welcoming but not engaged in ethnic cleansing, and places engaged in ethnic cleansing. The distinction is important.

 

That isn't ethnic cleansing. If mob violence is ethnic cleansing, then Israeli settlers are engaged in it.

 

First, the term”ethnic cleansing” had to do with the accusation that Israel engages in ethnic cleansing. But, regardless, putting things in perspective, keep in mind that the pograms (calling it “mob violence” does not do the term, “pogram,” justice) in Morroco began in 1948 - three years after the Holocaust (and I think that event qualifies as ethnic cleansing). Jews suffering through a pogram in an unwelcoming Muslim country knew, based in very recent history at the time, they knew that if they valued their lives it was time to leave. That’s not semantics, IMO.

 

The issue is that you have two standards. On one side, you are claiming it is ethnic cleansing while the same behavior isn't considered ethnic cleansing if that group does it to the other group. This is driven entirely by in-group/out-group considerations. That is the issue as I see it. You are providing a lower standard because you sympathize with the in-group and a higher standard because you don't sympathize with the out-group.

This is a call for true intellectual honesty not just an in-group/out-group fight over the term.

 

I see your point. I disagree with the conclusion, as I don’t see the Israeli settlements rising to ethnic cleansing, but there are few that have become violent. I’d contrast that by reminding that Arab Israelis have every single right as a Jewish Israeli.

 

LOL at people who believe there are two parties …

 

You have a problem. There’s nothing funny or absurd about what I wrote. It’s all 100% true.

 

Assuming this is true (and I have no reason to doubt your source), is it really necessary to write “finish them” on bombs that will inevitably kill lots of innocent children, even if you support the war? As if Haley making a special trip to Israel isn’t supportive enough, she had to write little love letters to the kids on the sides of the bombs? That’s fucked up, man.

 

I don’t think your history is correct. Consider this discussion in the British Parliament:

Theresa Villiers
(Chipping Barnet) (Con)
I beg to move,
That this House has considered Jewish refugees from the Middle East and North Africa. … In 1945, 856,000 Jewish people lived in the middle east, north Africa and the Gulf region. Only about 4,500 remain, almost all of them in Morocco and Tunisia. Jewish people have lived continuously in the middle east and north Africa for over 2,600 years, yet in just a few decades they almost totally disappeared. Thousands were expelled or fled their home countries in fear. Around 850,000 were forced out or felt they had to leave following the United Nations decision to partition Palestine in 1947. Age-old communities, with roots dating back millennia, were gone. It was the largest exodus of non-Muslims from the middle east until the movement of Christians from Iraq after 2003.

Between 1948 and 1972, pogroms and violent attacks were perpetrated in every Arab country against its Jewish residents. The ethnic cleansing of thousands of Jewish people from the Arab world in the mid-20th century was described by journalist Tom Gross as “systematic, absolute and unprovoked.” For example, there were 38,000 Jews living in western Libya before 1945. Now there are none. Few of the 74 synagogues in Libya are recognisable, and a highway runs through Tripoli’s Jewish cemetery. In Algeria, 50 years ago, there were 140,000 Jewish people. Now there are none. In Iraq, there were 135,000, and in Egypt, 75,000. Almost all are gone from those countries too. Some 259,000 left Morocco, 55,000 left Yemen, 20,000 left Lebanon, 180,000 left Syria and 25,000 left Iran. What happened amounted to the near total extinction of an ancient civilisation.”

https://hansard.parliament.uk/commo...JewishRefugeesFromTheMiddleEastAndNorthAfrica

The UN considered these Jews refugees. As @ajoseph has said, some of these did make aliyah to return to the new state of Israel. However, we need to remember that almost all these families had been in those countries for hundreds, if not thousands of years. The Jews of North Africa settled there after being expelled from Spain in 1492. The Jews in Iraq had been there since the Babylonian exile in 597 BC.

Although these Jews had their Jewish religion, most of them spoke Arabic, dressed in Arab clothing, and joined in Arab culture.

Those that left voluntarily most likely left because of fear or threats against them, in the same way that Arabs left Palestine voluntarily.

 

Your tax dollars at work

 

I have my history correct. The person is engaging in the same sort of intellectually dishonest argument that I pointed out. She is equating the decision to leave with ethnic cleansing. If that is the standard, then what is happening in Palestine today is ethnic cleansing. However, that is not the generally accepted definition of ethnic cleansing. She is equating actual acts of ethnic cleansing to emigration for a variety of reasons, including the end of colonialization and the existence of a majority Jewish country.

 

Only if they gain citizenship. The systems to gain citizenships are not the same between Arab Israelis and Jewish Israelis or even Jewish people from other countries. For example, a Jewish person with another citizenship doesn't have to give up their citizenship to gain Israeli citizenship. Any Arabic person has to give up their citizenship.

 

Perhaps you didn’t get a chance to read what I posted. Here is part of it again:

“Between 1948 and 1972, pogroms and violent attacks were perpetrated in every Arab country against its Jewish residents. The ethnic cleansing of thousands of Jewish people from the Arab world in the mid-20th century was described by journalist Tom Gross as ‘systematic, absolute and unprovoked.’”

That’s not people saying “hey, even though our families have been here for hundreds and even thousands of years, let’s pack up and move to this new country.” Why would people whose families had been in North Africa since 1492 or in Baghdad since 597 BC, all of a sudden decide en masse to move from those countries because of some kind of decolonialization?

 

I read it.

A. Not every Jewish family had lived there that long. Some were from the colonial powers initially and emigrated back with the end of colonialism (or had worked with the colonial governments and were, thus, allowed to go back to the colonial power).

B. Many had been in those places because there wasn't a majority Jewish state or even region of the world. They preferred to live in a country that was majority Jewish but had never been offered the opportunity. Like in much of the world, they certainly faced discrimination and didn't want to continue to face that, which could be done by being in the majority. But discrimination isn't ethnic cleansing. Again, ethnic cleansing has a specific definition. I could see why a Jewish person in Morocco, who often lived in poor neighborhoods with poor opportunities, wouldn't want to stay if offered a reasonable alternative.

You are still equating things that aren't ethnic cleansing with things that are.

 

Do you have sources to back up your views? They are plenty of sources that say Jews were expelled from those countries.

 

Here is a good primer on Morocco:

Community in Morocco - World Jewish Congress

Again, there were countries with forcible removals, countries with de jure discrimination where people chose to leave to avoid it (see, Algeria, for example), and countries with people leaving due to choice and better opportunities.

 

None of this justifies the genocide in Gaza today. It’s not like Israel has a “get out of jail free” card because of persecution they endured decades ago. Should blacks be allowed to murder whites en masse because of things whites did to blacks 200 years ago? Should Native Americans be allowed to slaughter huge numbers of innocent white kids because we moved them off their land 150 years ago?

At some stage you have to respect international law. What various countries did centuries ago has no bearing on this.