Multiple casualties reported in downtown Louisville shooting

I think it’s critical that we look at cultural changes in our society if we’re going to understand why these things happen. We have a lot more of these shootings today then we had 10 or 20 years ago when guns were just as available. I didn’t think that was ranting, just expressing some ideas.

I know some people want to keep shooting discussions entirely to the tool, and not deal at all into culture and that’s their prerogative. I think we’re going to continue to have senseless deaths if we don’t get at the root of the cultural change.

I really don’t get how asking you to explain your point was trying to shame you, or how anything else I posted was trying to shaming you. I don’t do that, and if you think it came across that that I was trying to shame you then I am sorry.

 

As time goes on and the mass shootings occur more and more frequently with each passing month, it just proves it has nothing to do with the 2nd Amendment. Sick, deranged individuals are copycatting other sick, deranged individuals and it continues to swell with a snowball effect.

Remember this? https://www.npr.org/2022/06/25/1107626030/biden-signs-gun-safety-law

"President Biden on Saturday signed into law the first major gun safety legislation passed by Congress in nearly 30 years."

Yet, the mass shootings continue to increase in frequency.

When are the anti-2nd Amendment folks going to realize it takes a very sick and disturbed individual to walk into a bank and murder their co-workers and LIVE STREAM that shit?!?! The gun wasn't sick. The guns the police used to put a stop to the incident weren't sick. The individual who did this was very sick. Maybe we should all take a step back and look at how far this country has gone off the rails in the past 30 years. It's not the gun's fault. It's the devaluation of human life, which has been manifest in many different ways over the past 30 years. I use the last 30 years, because before that time, these types of shootings were extremely, extremely rare. Now they happen almost every day in this country. The NRA didn't do that. Our Bill of Rights didn't do that. Very sick, twisted people did that and they are copycatting other very sick, twisted people.

When we can start holding PEOPLE accountable for their actions instead of inanimate objects, perhaps we'll be able to make some real progress on this horrific issue.

 

As I said above, *if even one feels this way* I'd back off the point. It does appear that SwampLizard is not willing to concede that guns are at least a part of the problem. I think at least a few people have picked up on my point (thank you). No others have claimed to have such a position on this thread, and I think that's worth noting.

Go GATORS!
,WESGATORS

 

no, we would say that fentanyl and oxy need to be strictly regulated jsut like we believe guns should be strictly regulated. they are both deadly and the general population has shown that they are not able to safely manage them on their own accord

 

I was incorrect, there is *one* poster that seemingly owns the view that I was challenging. Not sure what else you are getting at here, but if you ask respectfully, I'm happy to give an honest answer.

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,WESGATORS

 

It is exactly this type of thinking that has us where we are today. Instead of addressing the root cause of an issue, which is admittedly more challenging, people see legislating our rights away as the easy cure, hoping this will somehow take care of the problem. So that they can feel like they "did something", without having to put much effort into it. You're essentially allowing that very minute, demented segment of society to win, because you don't want to address what possessed them to think it was cool to take a loaded gun into a bank, mow down a bunch co-workers, while they livestream it on the internet. Just ban guns.. that'll fix it. Got news for ya, bruh. That won't fix it.

 

It won’t fix all the worlds problems, but it will reduce gun deaths and overall violent deaths. You can look at just about any first world country, in the world, and they will have dramatically lower rates of gun deaths, and overall lower rates of murders and violent deaths. What is the difference? All of those countries have more restrictive gun laws.

I find it ironic that those who typically advocate a low government footprint, say that we should really try harder to solve all of these diverse problems that contribute to people shooting other people. Presumably such an effort to cure all of these ills would entail massive amounts of resources.

It really isn’t complicated. If you have enough people, there will be outliers, in terms of behaviors. Those behaviors may be due to biology, or environment. But they will always be there. The difference is do we want these outliers to have guns?

 

You can’t compare other countries, many of which are homogeneous and have never had broad protection of gun rights embedded into their Constitution, to the situation in America. You’re talking about the 2nd amendment, which is right up there with fundamental freedoms such as freedom of speech, religion and press. If you believe in America, you understand these rights are central to what has made us the dominant world superpower we are. Our forefathers bled for these rights. What we can do though, is look at cities and states inside America who have enacted strict gun laws and see they’ve have very little positive effect on gun violence in those jurisdictions. You can’t compare, for example, the crime ridden ghettos of Miami and Chicago to the ghettos in Denmark. It’s silly to think we can create that sort of panacea here in the melting pot that is the United States. A country that had in its early stages a “wild Wild West” and has always had inalienable gun rights as a central cog of its democracy.

To be clear, I’m not asking for more government intervention to fix the social ills of the nation. That would actually be the last place I’d look for help with that situation. It is incumbent on our people, our families to restore values which respect life and which do not deflect blame for these atrocities onto inanimate objects. Reminds me of The Rolling Stones “Sympathy for the Devil”. The point of the song was to spoof society for blaming the Devil for all of our atrocities, when after all, it was you and me. The gun is not the issue. Please understand that it takes a psycho to walk into a gun store with the intent of “I’m gonna light that place up.” Something happened in that person’s life to make them think it was kosher to carry out such an attack and broadcast it live. We had lots of guns 50 years ago, but this crap didn’t happen. It’s the trend of sociopaths these days and no I don’t want to give up my 2nd amendment rights our forefathers bled for because a few sociopaths did pathological things.

What I mean for society is that we need to confront the issue head on at the family level. Our culture has been reduced to raising kids on iPads and tv. Many parents simply don’t put forth the effort to raise their kids the right way. We’ve devalued human life. The nuclear family is like a myth nowadays and is constantly under attack by all the progressive bs. I think we are going to figure out all conservative values weren’t backwards after all. That there is something inherently important in the familial unit. That our children shouldn’t be raised by a village.

 

Yea. Let’s hold the Nashville and Louisville shooters responsible. Should we bury them in a jail cell?

What do you propose?

 

A border wall is just a tool. It doesn't get down to the root cause...oh wait we are talking guns here. A gun is just a tool...

 

Ok. Good luck conquering our mental illness problem with this attitude. As I suspect, the people that talk about it the most as causing these incidents basically dont believe its a thing. Because it would in some respect force them to blame society or something other than the shooter. Is there nothing about American life that alienates people?

 

You missed the entire point. Yes, I know they’re dead. We as a nation need to confront WHY and HOW a person comes to a mental state such as this where they carry out such a premeditated, gruesome crime against innocent children or ex-employees or people dancing at a nightclub. These are obviously becoming a copycat routine by people who feel victimized in some way and are carrying out their vengeance against society. I would say most of them already know they’re not going to survive the incident going into it.

 

We will only find out that their mental state isnt much different from people who dont shoot up things. I would imagine they feel lonely, alienated, angry, powerless, frustrated like many people in America do all the time. We just happen to live somewhere where buying a gun and asserting yourself is an option. The promise of the gun is to take power back, whether your fantasy is defending your rights from a hostile king or showing your mugger/boss/spouse you arent to be walked all over.

 

An AR or Glock or Kimber they are all just tools insane people use them to reek havoc, this is why I have a gun safe that I spent stupid amounts of money on to keep those tools away from criminals and insane people I also spent money on a truck safe to keep that weapon out of criminals and insane peoples hands. We can sit here and argue about 2A or how to get guns out of peoples hands that isn't going to happen you just don't make 4 million personally owned firearms disappear come up with a better idea I am all for more detailed background checks, waiting periods, decreased magazine capacity who needs a bump stock or a stabilizer stock , if you want to ban AR type weapons okay sure I also own one of the most powerful rifles in the world are you going to ban all of them?

 

AR-15 sales have exploded during the same time period as mass shootings.

 

Quite possibly, and if such a discovery leads us to recognize that there are no obvious distinctions that can be discovered between those who will and those who won't, that should make it easier to impose restrictions due to a shear randomness of likelihood of occurrence. This would be useful information if true. But it's just a guess, right? What if we find some real patterns of abuse that people didn't know about; if there were points in people's lives that had somebody stepped in, they could have made a difference to avoid going down a given path. What if we have a way to not only identify that some people may feel this way, but they actually have biological markers that suggest a greater tendency to act on their feelings in such a destructive way (not just with mass shootings, but even with managing their own life). There's no down side to learning more and trying to discover whether there's more to know or if the more we look, the more random it all seems.

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,WESGATORS

 

I think you confused Jesus with the Beatles, who told us that happiness is a warm gun.

 

One of the cultural changes I've noticed is gun enthusiasts adopting militaristic operator/special forces aesthetics. Part of owning a gun now is pretending you are in a paramilitary death squad. Another cultural change I noticed is you can buy backpacks that can turn into bullet proof vests. Schools, businesses and social organizations doing mass shooting trainings, that's a cultural change. People talking about turning schools into security fortresses. We had a poster talking about his various holsters for different outfits like it was a purse or something. If we are going to do this, we need to look at how gun laws have impacted culture too!

 

Very few mass shooters are criminals until their shooting sprees, and they don't need to break into your safe to get a rifle.

I think you would see fewer calls for bans if 2A enthusiasts took proactive steps to mitigate the risk of mass shootings by proposing and implementing some of the stuff you list out.

 

Why would that make it easier to impose restrictions? There are almost no legal responsibilities involved in owning a gun and no restrictions until you shoot someone in this country. If owning a gun is a right, then that makes it hard to do anything to people who have done nothing wrong, legally speaking. That's why I've said that people need to take a maximalist approach and say that gun ownership isnt a right, because if it isnt, that makes it a lot easier to get guns out of a persons hands who may not need to have them. If that bothers you, then I think you have to accept the status quo as it is. People are going to get guns and use them for their intended purpose (killing), and like many crimes there is little you can do because you cant arrest or detain someone for not breaking the law. You have to wait until the bodies are stacked up, assuming the shooter survives.