How China's Military Views the United States

This is a podcast episode on the book I described earlier. I have it on reserve at the library and should get it in about 2 weeks according to their estimate. I have not listened to this episode yet but it seems to follow the course from PW Singers Ghost Fleet based upon the excerpts that were published in Wired

“2034,” a Cautionary Tale of Conflict with China - The New Yorker: Politics and More

 

Interesting. Kind of reminded me of Japan's attitude pre-WW II. The Japanese military was convinced that war with America was imminent.

 

Man, people sure hate it when another country acts exactly like us

 

It absolutely WAS imminent. (IMO) When Roosevelt initiated the Oil Embargo, and threw support to the English, pretty much sealed the deal. Although the fault of war rested much heavier on the Japanese whom were literally desperate to initiate it.

The avowed militarists (Tojo / many others) were determined on territorial annexation - (CHINA), INDO-CHINA, RUSSIA, Eastern Pacific - You name it.

Japanese were PISSED about the "legal" allotment of ships vis a vie the Washington Naval Conference.

IMO, considering whom was in power WAR was almost inevitable with the Japanese. Remember, the Japanese, much like the Nazi's attributed their culture and intellect to be the highest on earth. An incredibly racist society with visions of grandeur. They were shown............OTHERWISE.

 

Well yes, they rightly figured two countries with imperial ambitions in the Pacific might come into conflict . The main problem is that the Japanese let the fanatical militarists run the show, and allowed them to set policy by acting without sanction/accountability and letting them intimidate more cautious elements of their leadership, who knew protracted war with the US was unwinnable.

 

Well thankfully the Chinese and Russians don’t work together.....

 

We did play some role with boxing them in on sanctions due to the early expansionism. Of course, you could say that the earlier expansionism caused those issues.

 

Whew! So glad that's not happening ;>

 

Getting back ttt -

Today? Americans, the world even, should be concerned.

I make no claim to be an expert on modern day Chinese's imperial aspirations however I do "read". What I'm getting:

Silk Road Initiative - Many compare it to the "Marshall Plan" - A rather extensive financial and infrastructure program that extends from the Western Chinese boarders throughout Eurasia. Considering the SIZE, RESOURCES and willingness of neighbors to participate this project WILL have ENORMOUS consequences in the region and I suspect by the end of the 21st century could very well propel China as "THE" dominant world superpower.

African Initiative - While Americans are content with destroying any vestige of American Democracy that still promotes enlightened Western Ideals over a few crumbs of greed, (had to get that in, thanks to YOU - GOP) ) the Chinese are doing much the same in Africa as they are in Eurasia.

While these motives have been questioned, the biggest concern is simply that China is GOBBLING UP ARABLE LAND all over the continent. WHY? - FOOD PRODUCTION. Chinese are investing, HEAVILY, in land acquisition. Whatever the "REAL" reason behind the African investments, the Chinese are, IN ADDITION to hoarding land, building roads and pipelines, airports and infrastructure. By any known measure the Chinese are LIGHT YEARS ahead of the USA in terms of dealing with "AFRICA"

OK with that prep done - lets get straight to the thread topic:
How does the Chinese Military view the U.S.?? ANSWER: As the biggest existential threat in the world to their Culture.

The Chinese CANNOT accomplish the above two initiatives without a powerful military. Fact of life among superpowers today.

Americans should also get their head out of their ass and quaint themselves with the long and troubled history between Western Imperialism and China.
The uneducated will only consider 20th century China in an evaluation:
Mao, commie, yellow, dog eaters, dogs, uncivilized, over-populated and on and on and on like our Xenophobic Culture has FALSELY promoted.

The honest among you will admit that stereo typing "Chinese" has long been an active ingredient on any thoughts related to this culture. The inherent racism toward the Chinese are.......endless. As chattel labor they built the Western Railroads and in fact much of the infrastructure of California and the West Coast.

The numerous incursions by Western and yes AMERICAN military forces IN CHINA have proved, well, disastrous. (As usual the ENGLISH were "first" at the Imperialism Feast) .

While American / Chinese relations were friendly at a time during WW2 (For expediencies sake) that little bit of good will was quickly and forever forgotten with the ascension of Mao and the Chinese Communist party.

Recall that we, Americans, seem to think we know whats better for the Chinese than the Chinese themselves. (Very Republican don't you think?).

TODAY any dealings with China must be viewed under these FACTS:

The USA and Partners supported the re-location of Sun Yet Sin to Formosa and the continuation of a "Pro" Western Gov't. essentially "taking" Formosa under military threat. I suppose one may argue endlessly that this was a good thing - IF YOUR AMERICAN.

The South China Sea - LOOK AT THE DAMN MAP!
Is not the Gulf of Mexico. The arrogance of American Administrations.
Yet we were willing to go to war over some missiles in CUBA were we not?

CHINA AIN'T GOING AWAY.

This is an incredibly OLD Culture that has been shit on badly by Western Imperialists for centuries. It's laughable that Americans don't seem to know this but blindingly follow American jingoism and propaganda.

Maybe for some on this board dying in a nuclear exchange may be "proper" foreign policy but frankly I don't want to die over the South China Sea.

 

Good stuff. No way I can respond to all of it in one text message.

Certainly Western history factors in current Chinese conduct in a lot in ways we don't appreciate. And there are elements of Chinese culture that long predate the ascendancy of the West that factor in. They are not the only people who seek to recapture past glory. Hafez al-Assad used to show everyone a map for when the caliphate was dominant. OBL would refer to the tragedy of al Andalus. Our last President prevailed on a claim to bring back past dominance, albeit far more recent and not really lost.

I do think that we overly Sinocize certain so-called devious traits, when the CCP is largely acting as one would expect of an ascendant power, rather than having any special level of expansionism. You can't unnaturally restrain power by telling a growing power that it must accept a historical role that arose during a weaker time. See Lebanese Civil War and the Shiites or even the rise of Germany after the Franco-Prussian War. You can't contain a people forever just by telling them it's their natural place.

That said, I still believe in inherent Western values, even if our last leader didn't. And so do China's neighbors. They don't necessarily agree with all we do but they would much rather have a dominant US in the Pacific basin than a dominant China. Let's not forget the fact that both Taiwan and Hong Kong are ethnically Chinese, although Hong Kong may not be predominately Han, and they don't want to adopt China's political system or submit themselves to China's political hegemony either.

It's complex, to be sure

 

Which they say they learn from us, and that appears to be correct. Everything I’ve always understood is that they believe they had to win the war in a year or they could not, due to oil shortages. The army navy rivalry was an immense limitation

 

Not Strictly related but probably not worthy of its own thread. North Korea fired off some test cruise missiles this weekend. Jeffrey Lewis has been predicting this

 

BTW, the Germans did not roll through the Maginot Line, much else to disagree with there in terms of historicity, and it’s far from clear we could prevail in a localized South China Sea conflict. A lot of Red Teams have prevailed in simulations. A2/AD and all that

 

Hi Chem, great stuff and informative.

You bring up some interesting points.
First example - same could be said for Hitlers reoccupation of the Rhineland which occurred several years earlier (1936 as I recall). French, per Versailles Treaty had every right to throw Germany back out.

But I digress, the real point is US / CHINA engagement in the S China Sea.
Your post has a clear (to me) jingoistic view of the situation - and I do not disagree that sometimes you have to kick a bully in the ass to get his attention.

But the fact of the matter is the US is neither a predominantly ASIAN Country nor is the majority of our territorial area in that part of the World.

Military engagement is far more complex (and dangerous) now than in the 1930's, especially considering explosive yields and methods of delivery.

One can only hope that diplomacy and the better angels of our nature prevail.

The alternative is just scary to think about. But when it comes down to it, (My Choice), I prefer to have my blood shed over a more serious threat to our domestic security.

My best friends dad was killed in combat in 1967 in Vietnam.
I am deeply connected to that abomination of American Militarism. I repeat again, I have no interest in myself, my sons or my fellow citizens dying over
shitty little barrier reefs in the S China Sea or Taiwan for that matter.

Just my opinion

 

General Manstein developed the famous "Sickle Cut" that was used to such astounding effect. Helped he had Guedarian and Rommel on his team too.

While simplistic in idea: Massed Panzer / armor attack it was stunningly revolutionary at the time. Combined with the Luftwaffe and the awesome stuka and BF 109 it was a tough package to handle.

Regarding topic - War will be disastrous with the Chinese. See "Chesty Puller / Chosin Reservoir".

 

Frozen Chosin. Hell