Welcome home, fellow Gator.

The Gator Nation's oldest and most active insider community
Join today!

How China's Military Views the United States

Discussion in 'Too Hot for Swamp Gas' started by chemgator, Jun 18, 2020.

  1. chemgator

    chemgator GC Hall of Fame

    13,510
    1,889
    1,318
    Apr 3, 2007
    The Brits are recommending that the U.S. (and possibly Britain) get involved in enforcing international maritime law in the Philippines dispute with China.

    Beijing aims to snatch the entire South China Sea. The US Navy is backing down

     
  2. chemgator

    chemgator GC Hall of Fame

    13,510
    1,889
    1,318
    Apr 3, 2007
    I think you meant to say "target-building capacity". Yes, they are better at building targets than the U.S. But are their boats combat-ready? Wasn't China's last successful naval activity 600 years ago with Admiral Zheng He? Fishing and intimidating other countries' fishing boats with lasers and water cannon are a bit different than combat. China would be wise to remember that.

    Zheng He - Wikipedia
     
  3. defensewinschampionships

    defensewinschampionships GC Hall of Fame

    6,275
    2,400
    1,998
    Sep 16, 2018
    I think I ready they have one carrier group. They have the largest fleet of fishing boats the world has ever seen. Naval combat against the west would be disastrous. Spontaneous coral reefs in the South China Sea.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  4. chemgator

    chemgator GC Hall of Fame

    13,510
    1,889
    1,318
    Apr 3, 2007
    One more potential headache for China: Taiwan has developed and launched a new diesel-electric submarine, and apparently it looks like a pretty good one for their needs. It is a combination of Japanese and Dutch technology. Several of China's neighbors around the South China Sea have submarines, and the Philippines is looking at getting a few. It is a shame that China's pursuit of military technology and greed for conquest has caused almost all of Asia to militarize against the Chinese threat. It's an absolute disgrace that the U.S. and Europe did not see it coming and stop supporting China's economy until now. Too many ignorant, light-weight leaders, I suppose.

    Taiwan’s new home-grown submarine is a massive headache for China

     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  5. Trickster

    Trickster VIP Member

    9,848
    2,398
    3,233
    Sep 20, 2014
    OMG, this thread has finally been relegated to Page 2. Thank goodness because who cares how they view us!
     
    • Fistbump/Thanks! Fistbump/Thanks! x 1
  6. chemgator

    chemgator GC Hall of Fame

    13,510
    1,889
    1,318
    Apr 3, 2007
    Nope. It's back on Page 1. Somebody must have replied to it.
     
    • Funny Funny x 1
  7. dingyibvs

    dingyibvs Premium Member

    2,077
    159
    293
    Apr 8, 2007
    We haven't fought a real sea battle for almost 80 years either. In fact, there hasn't been a major sea battle anywhere in the world since WWII. Just think about how the Ukraine war showed how much has changed in major land warfare, I think we'll all be in for a big shock at the changes to naval warfare if a war breaks out between the US and China.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  8. defensewinschampionships

    defensewinschampionships GC Hall of Fame

    6,275
    2,400
    1,998
    Sep 16, 2018
    Are they going to overwhelm us with fishing vessels?
     
  9. BLING

    BLING GC Hall of Fame

    8,675
    843
    2,843
    Apr 16, 2007
    Space lasers.
     
  10. chemgator

    chemgator GC Hall of Fame

    13,510
    1,889
    1,318
    Apr 3, 2007
    True, but what we have is something that evolved from that experience, along with having our ships attacked several times from the air as well as the sea in recent decades (USS Cole, the ship hit by an Iraqi missile, etc.). The U.S. Navy has also supported combat plenty of times since WWII, sending in aircraft from carriers for bombing runs over Iraq (in two wars), for example. And I have to believe that we have a better testing system for the navy, since we've been doing it so long. But I think the major difference is in the people. The U.S. knows how to run training programs geared towards being prepared for combat, whereas communist countries are usually more geared toward spotless presentation and parade-type activities to impress the party leadership. It is effective at intimidating an outclassed opponent, but not so much against a peer opponent. That's why Russia's first instinct in the Ukraine War was to have a parade travel to Kiev to accept Ukraine's surrender.
     
  11. dingyibvs

    dingyibvs Premium Member

    2,077
    159
    293
    Apr 8, 2007
    We've had our troubles against far more inferior communist militaries than current day China before, lest you forgot about Korea and Vietnam. I don't see how minor incidents like USS Cole can compare with a full blown war, that's like saying facing a road-side IED once 20 years ago prepared us to fight a modern ground war. Russia had more recently fought actual wars in Chechnya and Syria, but Ukraine was nothing like they'd ever seen before. That you'd even bring up something as minor as USS Cole, that we even remember it, shows just how little war-fighting experience our modern Navy actually has.

    Also, we've had a lot of self-elevating theories about communist countries, but they're just theories, and China is proving a lot of them false. Their economy is more dynamic and connected than any other communist country before, more connected in fact than any other country period. For their stage of economic development the level of innovation is also way beyond what the theories about politically repressive regimes would predict. I wouldn't dismiss the idea that they can form a capable military.

    Lastly, we've seen how modern ground warfare has evolved into long-range missile/artillery strikes combined with masses of low-cost drones laying waste to expensive, advanced weapons systems. I wouldn't be surprised if naval warfare evolves similarly. Guess who's pretty good at making long-range missile/artillery systems, who has the industrial capacity to make millions of drones, and who has a preponderance of expensive, advanced weapons systems?
     
  12. dingyibvs

    dingyibvs Premium Member

    2,077
    159
    293
    Apr 8, 2007
    Actually, I wouldn't be surprised by something like that. They might just try to overwhelm us with swarms of cheap unmanned boats and aircrafts that'd exhaust our munitions.
     
  13. duggers_dad

    duggers_dad GC Hall of Fame

    16,006
    1,182
    2,088
    Jan 5, 2022
  14. defensewinschampionships

    defensewinschampionships GC Hall of Fame

    6,275
    2,400
    1,998
    Sep 16, 2018
    A 2 man marine element, armed with Mk 14s, perhaps even a Mk 12 should do the trick. 1000 rounds of Mk262 or M83 takes up surprisingly little room.
     
  15. chemgator

    chemgator GC Hall of Fame

    13,510
    1,889
    1,318
    Apr 3, 2007
    The Cole attack is relevant in that you need to have procedures and defenses in place for all kinds of attack scenarios, including asymmetric warfare. The USS Stark attack is relevant because it influences both ship design and procedures. The Gulf Wars are relevant because a lot of the fighting that our navy typically does during warfare is done by launching jets from aircraft carriers. Having an aircraft carrier and operating it at peak efficiency are often two different things.

    The U.S., I believe, also has much more realistic naval exercises, often with other countries, than China does. All China seems able to do is run circles around Taiwan with their ships to prove that they can, and try to intimidate Taiwan. That's not much of a realistic warfare training exercise. Meeting up with some rust-bucket Russian ships in the Bering Sea is not a military-preparedness exercise of any consequence.

    And, of course, the big advantage is that we have jets on the aircraft carriers that the Chinese radar is likely unable to see. They have an older generation of stealth jet than we have. Until China has an answer for that, things will be difficult for them.

    The Chinese economy is no longer considered the dynamo that it used to be. They have some serious long-term problems with it. They may need to hurry their timeline for invading Taiwan, if they really want to do that.
     
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2023
  16. dingyibvs

    dingyibvs Premium Member

    2,077
    159
    293
    Apr 8, 2007
    What if each little ship carries a short range missile, say just 20kms, which outranges any CIWS but has a normal-ish sized warhead? What if they carry a bunch of tiny missiles (e.g. the size of small drones) with similar range and instead of trying to sink the ship they just each have a small fragmentation warhead to disable our radars, satcoms, etc.? What if they carry small torpedoes instead? What if they ARE autonomous torpedoes? Just off the top of my head I can think of a lot of new ways for naval warfare to unfold.

    And an IED wouldn't have taught our troops anything? Of course it would, and it did, and its relevance is just as miniscule for modern warfare. F-35s have limited combat radius, particularly if they're carrying a strike package which will be limited as well if they want to carry it internally and remain stealthy. That's why China has been developing long-range strike options against sea targets. They may not be able to keep track of our carriers in the open ocean, but come within F-35's strike radius and they have a good shot. They don't have to meet us in the open ocean if the war is to take place around Taiwan.

    The Chinese economy is still more dynamic and connected than any communist nation's ever was. They don't have long term head winds, they have long term tail winds. They've surpassed us in terms of patents and high quality research papers, and they're in the driver's seat in renewables, next-gen nuclear, and EVs/batteries. They're nipping on our heels in quantum computing and AI. And now apparently they're making headways in catching up on semiconductor manufacturing. The only head wind they face is the property sector, but what does a booming property sector do except boost GDP at the cost of social instability from unaffordable housing?

    Hubris like yours is what'll doom us. We've long forgotten how to invest in ourselves, it's time we remember it. I've been saying it for a long time now, but it starts with education. Teach our kids useful things like STEM subjects instead of letting them get distracted by SM. Living in the bay area, it's shameful how bad SF's public schools are despite how rich the city has been. Our colleges are still very good, but a large swath of the population is now turning against them, seeing them as elitist, leftist havens. We can't get high on the hopium of "China collapse", we're not gonna win by China failing, the only way to victory is for us to succeed.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  17. chemgator

    chemgator GC Hall of Fame

    13,510
    1,889
    1,318
    Apr 3, 2007
    I'm not against succeeding, and I'm not against education. I know we aren't going to win by China failing. I think we have enough going for us that we can continue to be successful with or without a relationship with China, as long as:

    1) We don't fall for the con-man's (Trump's) lies and incompetence.

    2) We don't fall for Russian propaganda.

    3) We continue to recognize China as an economic and military threat, and remain committed to de-coupling our technology supply chains from China.

    4) We continue to maintain a good working relationship with Europe, and they continue to work on de-coupling economically from China.

    And yes, China has some serious economic headwinds long-term. Their one-child policy, combined with their recent turn towards authoritarianism (Covid response, political speech restrictions, etc.), and combined with the uncertainty of the current economic crisis, has turned women off severely from having children. Many women don't want any kids. They don't trust their government. Their population is on its way to taking a long, slow nose-dive. Combine that with the retirement policies (full retirement at 55/60 years of age, or 50 for blue collar jobs), and China will have trouble maintaining their growing elderly population as the working-age population shrinks. And right now, 46% of people 16-25 years old are unemployed, so the average number of years that people will be working is shrinking. Most people in the west work for 40+ years--in China, that number is shrinking toward 30 years. Worse, younger people will not have developed any job skills by the time they do get a job. The things they learned in college will be forgotten or out-of-date by the time they get their first job. And I haven't even started talking about the housing crisis. Worse than the housing crisis itself is how China got into the mess that they are in now with housing. Their system for handing out money for housing project is obviously flawed, but they don't seem to have a clue how to solve it. They have always relied on the federal government to decide which provinces get loans for projects, and the provinces will never stop asking for loans. No one is risking their own money on these projects, so there is little reason to say no. The disconnects of central government planning is one of the major disadvantages of communist governments, and China clearly proved that, just as Russia proved it over 30 years ago. I also suspect that the Chinese are starting to feel that Chairman Xi is well on his way to becoming a dictator. Previous leaders were not so full of arrogance and power-hungry like Xi, intimidating other party leaders to exceed the normal term limits of the job.
     
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2023
  18. tampagtr

    tampagtr VIP Member

    17,553
    2,782
    1,618
    Apr 3, 2007
    The Chinese may have lost a sub.

     
  19. chemgator

    chemgator GC Hall of Fame

    13,510
    1,889
    1,318
    Apr 3, 2007
    Here is another article on the possibly lost sub. Not much detail, and no confirmation. China will, of course, try to hide it if possible.

    If it is true, it is another example of an inexperienced navy making one mistake too many in an unforgiving environment. Ironic if it was taken down by its own defensive hardware trying to trap a British sub.

    Has a Chinese submarine crashed in the Taiwan Strait? What we know

     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Informative Informative x 1
  20. Sohogator

    Sohogator GC Hall of Fame

    3,568
    576
    358
    Aug 22, 2012
    Read somewhere that they don’t have CO2 scrubbers?