Welcome home, fellow Gator.

The Gator Nation's oldest and most active insider community
Join today!
  1. Hi there... Can you please quickly check to make sure your email address is up to date here? Just in case we need to reach out to you or you lose your password. Muchero thanks!

Henry Kissinger Dies at 100

Discussion in 'Too Hot for Swamp Gas' started by duchen, Nov 29, 2023.

  1. duchen

    duchen VIP Member

    14,738
    5,411
    3,208
    Nov 25, 2017
     
    • Like Like x 1
  2. wgbgator

    wgbgator Premium Member

    30,302
    1,913
    2,218
    Apr 19, 2007
    Made it to 100 and died of the Covid vaccine
     
    • Funny Funny x 8
    • Informative Informative x 1
  3. gator_lawyer

    gator_lawyer VIP Member

    18,324
    6,214
    3,213
    Oct 30, 2017
    Really bad guy. That's all I'll say.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  4. wgbgator

    wgbgator Premium Member

    30,302
    1,913
    2,218
    Apr 19, 2007
     
  5. channingcrowderhungry

    channingcrowderhungry Premium Member

    9,279
    2,094
    3,013
    Apr 3, 2007
    Bottom of a pint glass
    How many hamburgers did he consume per day?
     
    • Funny Funny x 4
  6. uftaipan

    uftaipan GC Hall of Fame

    9,226
    2,162
    1,483
    May 31, 2007
    Fresno, CA
    Reportedly when he first met Golda Meir, just so she wouldn’t assume any kind of favoritism, he said, “I’m an American first, a Republican second, and a Jew third.”

    Without skipping a beat, she said, “That’s okay, sonny. We read from right to left over here.”

    We just read his book On China for school. Excellent read. RIP.
     
    • Funny Funny x 7
    • Like Like x 1
    • Informative Informative x 1
  7. gatormonk

    gatormonk GC Hall of Fame

    8,362
    7,471
    2,803
    Apr 3, 2007
  8. tampagtr

    tampagtr VIP Member

    17,633
    2,881
    1,618
    Apr 3, 2007
    ADL on a roll of late

     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  9. uftaipan

    uftaipan GC Hall of Fame

    9,226
    2,162
    1,483
    May 31, 2007
    Fresno, CA
    The ADL likely understands the context of those remarks, which was defining vital national interests. The U.S. was not willing to go to war with the Soviet Union over its emigration restrictions. Of course, most people who could would leave the “worker’s paradise,” and, of course, the Soviet Union would take steps to make sure its rank-and-file population would stay and work. Massive emigration fed the (correct) Western narrative about communism. But were we willing to go to war over it or not cooperate with the Soviet Union on such matters as arms reduction? Kissinger, a classical realist, was saying no. As far as the “gassing of Jews,” that was an obviously hyperbolic answer to a hyperbolic question: “Well, what if the Soviet Union started exterminating its Jewish population like Hitler?” I suppose Kissinger could have taken the time to explain the ridiculousness of the hypothetical, since the Soviet Union’s goal was to keep its Jewish population and keep it working, but instead he gave a realist answer: that might be a humanitarian concern, but it is not an American vital national interest. And that is true.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  10. tampagtr

    tampagtr VIP Member

    17,633
    2,881
    1,618
    Apr 3, 2007
    Vast human rights violations very definitely create a vital American national interest. The question is how to react. The comments are in the context of Jackson-Vanik and just before the Helsinki Accords, which history has shown were extremely significant in delegitimizing the Soviet Union, such that VP chose Helsinki for the meeting to demonstrate Imperial Russia’s greatest triumph since the devastating defeat in the Cold War, a disloyal and supplicating asset in the Oval, embracing Russia over his own nation.

    HK was completely wrong in that regard, as he was on the role of human rights in general. There is very definitely a significant role for realism, but moral authority remains the greatest weapon the West had to win the Cold War and its continuation to this day. Not only that, his continued public statements after he was out of power celebrating and even exaggerating Western human rights abuses and complicity, all in the name of narcissistic monetization, hurt the cause and harmed US interests.

    It is one thing to regrettably make a realist decision. But imagine if Churchill, instead of saying he would make a deal with the devil to stop Hitler, had publicly praised Stalin and the Holodomor into the 1950s at any speaking engagement that would pay him, repeating the mass deaths as statistic of insignificance reflecting Uncle Joe’s strength as a leader, which even his own successors would repudiate.

    One thing I have not seen reference to today, though I likely missed it, is HK absolving and approving the tanks over protesters in Tianneman Square, a lone voice among universal world condemnation.

    His strategic worldview was wrong even as a matter of cynical realism.
     
  11. uftaipan

    uftaipan GC Hall of Fame

    9,226
    2,162
    1,483
    May 31, 2007
    Fresno, CA
    I’m only going to argue one point and that is the definition of a vital national interest. Vital, as in not protecting would directly and adversely affect the national security of the United States. It is more complex than this but let’s think of it as something you will go to war over or take serious escalatory steps that might very well result in war. Historical examples would include the hard red line we put around West Berlin or not allowing the Soviet Union to place nuclear weapons in the Western Hemisphere. We can disagree on whether or not the U.S. should have laid down the law there, but that is what a vital national interest looks like.

    With few exceptions, other countries’ domestic policies (however distasteful to us) do not rise to that level. Now, that said, it does not mean we don’t have a plethora of other interests that are less than vital. Of course, we do.

    But let’s not kid ourselves. I don’t believe for one second this Administration would risk war with Russia or China over domestic human rights abuses. We won’t even risk war with Russia over its brazen invasion of a sovereign country, and preventing the normalization of conquest arguably is a vital national interest. So we might throw around language loosely about what is vital, but the difference is that Kissinger said out loud what is also in Jake Sullivan’s heart: we will not fight Russia over what it does domestically.
     
    • Winner Winner x 2
    • Like Like x 1
  12. wgbgator

    wgbgator Premium Member

    30,302
    1,913
    2,218
    Apr 19, 2007
    Or ... these are just the same people that defended Elon after he agreed with the idea that Jews spread hatred of whites. After all, Kissinger like Elon never committed the sin of being anti-Zionist.
     
    • Come On Man Come On Man x 2
  13. tampagtr

    tampagtr VIP Member

    17,633
    2,881
    1,618
    Apr 3, 2007
    I think you are defining vital national interest as one that justifies military intervention. I am not as limiting. Soft power is powerful, and military "intervention" has near infinite gradations, some of which are well justified by human rights violations

    I prefer to use an analytics framework that emphasizes anticipated costs over the best estimated timeline, including effects on alliances and international opinion.

    It's word salad - you can only tease it out in specific context. And I maintain that HK has been proven extremely wrong by history in underestimating the power to achieve US goals through exposing and emphasizing Soviet human rights abuses, including emigration of Jews.

    We have our wrongs and the moral slate is never categorically clean, but no argument was more powerful in exposing proportion than voting with their feet - citizens sought to leave their home and culture behind to escape Communist rule.

    Soft power is never sufficient alone, but is always underestimated in its power.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  14. Trickster

    Trickster VIP Member

    10,160
    2,479
    3,233
    Sep 20, 2014
  15. tilly

    tilly Superhero Mod. Fast witted. Bulletproof posts. Moderator VIP Member

    Just a bit before my time. I was born 2 months before the first Watergate break in. I am always interested in this period.
     
  16. wgbgator

    wgbgator Premium Member

    30,302
    1,913
    2,218
    Apr 19, 2007
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  17. OklahomaGator

    OklahomaGator Jedi Administrator Moderator VIP Member

    124,190
    164,259
    116,973
    Apr 3, 2007
    Wasn't he primarily responsible for setting up the Nixon to China trip?
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
  18. uftaipan

    uftaipan GC Hall of Fame

    9,226
    2,162
    1,483
    May 31, 2007
    Fresno, CA
    Nothing like that happens because of any one person, but he was probably most responsible, yes.
     
  19. 92gator

    92gator GC Hall of Fame

    14,583
    14,467
    3,363
    Jun 14, 2007
    Respect.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1