Florida woman forced to give birth to a baby that will die immediately

All people or some people? I may be wrong but I believe the abolitionist movement in the US was strongly support by many Churchs.

 

You’ve truly lost any objectivity. A large majority of Americans want legal abortions with some level of restrictions and you are calling them secular leftist cultists.

 

Slaveholders were the pro-choicers of their day.

 

Mostly only the south, the northern states started abolishing slavery not long after the United States came to be. Not all in one go mind you, but all the progress was in the North. The South, as a block, refused to abolish slavery and in fact fought a war to protect it under the guise of “states rights”.

If you think this freedom vs. slavery is a good comparison to abortion, you might also consider where the lines on abortion are being drawn, it’s mostly the slave states that are hardcore anti-abortion, also (not coincidentally) the states strongly opposed to civil rights, and still trying to deny equality to gay marriages. Some in the extreme right actually want to prevent pregnant women from crossing state lines. Or are spying on women they suspect of getting an abortion. Or in the case of TX (actual on the books law!) trying to set off bounty hunters to track down women who had abortions and those who assisted them in leaving the state, even giving women information could be a crime in TX. Think about that. None of that sounds much like freedom, actually sounds a bit like women are being treated as escaped slaves.

 

I know the science; any real doctor knows the science and should ignore any law that is unjust and founded in ignorance. I would have shot and killed any slave hunter that tried and enforced the “Fugitive Slave Act. I’m all for shooting any “so called” legal authority that tries and tells someone what they can do with their own body. I’m not reall big on allowing Nazis and Nazi like behavior to exist. I think the following excerpt from “The Dead Zone” applies to Desantis. Florida needs a Col Von Staffenburg.

 

Hanoi Jane, is that you?

Jane Fonda floats "murder" as response to abortion laws

 

I think most of us view collateral damage as a tragedy not as a feature of taking out a terrorist.

 

You're putting words in my mouth I never said.

 

This is self packed loaded baggage that needs to be unpacked and self examined. You might be surprised to learn from where that biased - seriously - biased idea came from.

In this we are in firm agreement. And I think the majority, perhaps excluding incels, libertarians, and sovereign citizens - you would find a majority of the electorate in agreement.

The fine tuning of all agreements requires establishing Workable Compromise. This is the only solution we have to avoid what appears to be a coming violent clash of opposing wills.

 

We have plenty of rules and moral standards, it's simply to the extent they are NOT your rules or consistent with YOUR moral judgement, they are evidence of decay.
A significant portion of your moral code involves attacking those who disagree with you in reprehensible terms....democrats are the party of genocide, posters are "groomers," "a lot of pro-choice advocates sound a lot like the pro-slavery advocates during the Civil War" More: "Your opinions on unwanted fetuses are genocidal." and "I hope many here don’t have any children."

You are correct about moral decay as evidenced by your words. If the above statements are consistent with a moral code, it is a morally bankrupt one.

 

I can tell you where it starts. It starts at one of the most fundamental levels of my life. My family fled a Communist regime that stole my family's property, incarcerated members of my family who remained, restricted religious practices. More of my family flees to the United States, years pass, I am born, and I am told their stories. We watch the news together, have conversations at the dinner table and we both see direct parallels between modern day rationale from the Democratic Party and Cuban Marxists backing the Castro regime.

Am I biased? You're darn right I'm biased. But I don't think that's unreasonable considering my family's story.

And I especially don't think that's unreasonable when looking at me as a counter-weight to the dramatic left-wing bias of Too Hot and frankly all sorts of mainstream institutions.

 

It's called fighting fire with fire. Don't dish it out if you can't take it.

If the status quo on Too Hot wants to play by those rules regarding decency, then great... until then... mutually assured destruction baby. Enjoy.

I'll be happy to play nice when my fellow posters on the other side agree to do the same.

 

The entire premise of your argument is treating fetuses as less than people.

Asking women not to kill their unborn child is nowhere close to treating them as escaped slaves. It's asking them not to murder their unborn son or daughter.

Also, I care a lot more about the arguments on the merits and the parallels in the arguments than the parties involved. Yes, it's an irony. The South has adopted a less racist philosophy on policy than the Northern states in modern-day United States. And yes, the South preached federalism, but that cannot and should not condemn all arguments revolving around federalism because this country was built on federalist principles. Sometimes those arguments have merit, sometimes they do not.

But when the basis of your argument revolves around deeming a whole swath of human beings as "less than people" maybe you should stop and think that maybe what you're saying is wrong.

 

If the bug would eventually metamorphose into a human being would you still stomp on it?

 

Good point, but it's already a human being.

It's more like if a person is in a coma and you knew for a fact they would definitely wake up in 9 months if you just continued your life as normal, would it be okay to take active steps to prevent that awakening.

 

If humans metaphorsized from an insect form, we’d have many other predators to worry about!

Presumably, in such a bizarre evolutionary hypothetical, humans would mass produce their young in hopes just a few make it through to adulthood. This is the tactic of insects, otherwise the species would have very little chance of survival. In that scenario there’d probably be very little value placed on the insect form of “human” life just as most people don’t think twice about squashing actual insects.

 

If a person were in a coma, and they eventually woke up, then That means they had a past, past consciousness, past live, and they currently have an active brain. A fetus has never had any of the significant attributes that make us human or alive in any sense of the word.

You are focusing on eventualities. Eventually it will probably be a full fledged human life, although it isn’t a guarantee (miscarriage, etc)But when you get into eventualities and hypotheticals the possibilities are endless and abstract.

An embryo and early fetus doesn’t have and has never had any of the characteristics or experiences that make us uniquely human. You are effectively ending a life that never really started.

I assume you oppose in vitro fertilization to the extent the process sometimes creates more fertilized eggs than needed, with some discarded.

What To Do With Frozen Embryos After IVF | Loma Linda

 

What if it's a baby that was successfully delivered but entered the world asleep and in a coma?

Now, obviously the baby is now viable in the sense that it can physiologically survive outside the womb.

But if humanity requires both past experiences and viability to be considered a person, you've narrowly crafted a definition of personhood almost specifically to exclude fetuses. And it's also inconsistent with the standard of "mere viability" because it presumably denies personhood to fetuses even 1 hour, 1 minute before being delivered.

 

What would we do without timeless rules like Black people aren't allowed to attend white schools or sit at white lunch counters or gay people aren't allowed to have intimate relationships? The people who oppose those timeless rules truly have no moral anchor.

 

I guess do away with all of the old traditions and rules then because racism existed. Real galaxy brain stuff there, lawyer.