Discussing sexuality with 3 year olds

You are correct that my views on the subject are informed by what I believe the Bible teaches on the subject. It is a fair question to ask if I were not a Christian, would I think the same way. I don’t know.

I think most civilizations throughout history have condemned homosexual behavior, and religion is not required for that viewpoint. Stalin outlawed homosexuality in the Soviet Union.

But as you say, even if you would accept those various structures as normal, when is it age-appropriate to discuss it with children? I would say definitely not three-year-olds.

You raise the broader question of informing children versus shielding them. This is something every parent wrestles with. In some ways the more they are educated about “realities” in life, the more it chips away at their childhood.

 

Please provide any data for your outlandish conjecture. Not talking points, not anecdotes, just data.

 

If I misunderstood your political philosophy, then I apologize for that. I want to make sure I represent peoples’ views accurately.

You say that I politicized the issue by referring to “liberal” and “left.” It seems to me that the people who promote or support events such as the one described tend to be politically liberal people. I doubt such an event would be hosted by conservatives. However, a number of people here who I would consider liberal have also expressed concerns about the event.

So, if “liberal” is not the correct way to describe people who support something like that, what would be the proper term? Should it be qualified as “socially liberal” or perhaps “progressive” or “socially progressive?”

You say that it is a Christian issue, which is true, but it is broader than that. Many people who are not Christians or not even religious find homosexuality to be aberrant behavior.

You have indicated that you believe that sexuality is innate, and that it is not a choice. Your OP highlighted your idea that a heterosexual person cannot be persuaded to become homosexual, because heterosexual is how they were born. I have a question for you then. There are countless men who, before coming out as gay, married women and fathered children. How is this possible if people cannot deviate from their natural born sexuality as a result of external forces? If a natural born homosexual person can respond to external forces, then why can’t the converse be true?

 

Fair question. Shall we all drop all references to liberal and conservative, left and right? It might make conversations more civil around here.

 

I think it would. I try hard not to use those ill-defined labels. I find my arguments weak whenever I do use them. I will, however, reference the "GOP" when talking about the collective and coordinated actions of its politicians, knowing full well that there exists dissenters even in that group.

If you see me using "left" or "right" to make a point, call me out on it, please.

 

I would say that whenever a kid is old enough to know about heterosexuality, he is old enough to know about homosexuality. There are obviously varying degrees of details that may or may not be appropriate at any given age. I have no memories from age three. I do recall having a crush on a fifth grader when I was in kindergarten and think a generalized feeling and understanding of romantic attraction comes at an early age.

I've read a little about the Greek and Roman treatment of homosexuality as well as Stalin's criminalization of it. Seems like for some places and time periods, homosexuality was treated differently for men and women and there was a particular emphasis on prohibiting homosexuality within the military. I wonder whether part of that was a concern about potential lovers' quarrels between soldiers.

I have never read any secular arguments against homosexuality that made any sense to me. I do understand why the thought of two men having sex is off-putting to straight men, but that doesn't seem to constitute a moral objection, particularly for straight men who don't have the same aversion to lesbianism. I've actually read an argument that the Bible (or maybe it was the Torah) only condemns men lying with other men but doesn't forbid women doing the same. I haven't gone back to research that claim, but maybe that argument is just guys trying to justify their adult video habits.

 

Correct theologically only in the most literal consubstantial sense, but I more prefer the Beatitudes, an Incarnational teaching

 

That's the word in the sentence that threw you, lol? I had to look up consubstantial.

 

The Ten Commandments are from the OT - from God the Father through Moses. Orthodox theology recognizes the second person of the Trinity - Jesus, as "consubstantial with the Father", born of the Father "before all ages". So technically also a promulgator of the Decalogue.

But most would not recognize the 10C as a teaching of Jesus, occurring long before the Incarnation

 

From the Nicene Creed - back to 325. The core of Orthodox theology, although the Orthodox in terms of the Great Schism differ on one clause not relevant here


I believe in one God,
the Father almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all things visible and invisible.

I believe in one Lord Jesus Christ,
the Only Begotten Son of God,
born of the Father before all ages.
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made, consubstantial with the Father;
through him all things were made.
For us men and for our salvation
he came down from heaven,
and by the Holy Spirit was incarnate of the Virgin Mary,
and became man.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate,
he suffered death and was buried,
and rose again on the third day
in accordance with the Scriptures.
He ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory
to judge the living and the dead
and his kingdom will have no end.

I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son,
who with the Father and the Son is adored and glorified,
who has spoken through the prophets.

I believe in one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church.
I confess one Baptism for the forgiveness of sins
and I look forward to the resurrection of the dead
and the life of the world to come. Amen.

 

I’ll ask you the same question that I asked @Trickster. Both of you believe that a person is born with a given sexuality. I believe you both indicated that the heterosexual child is not going to become homosexual because of knowing gay people exist. So seeing that you believe that sexuality is innate and cannot be influenced by external forces, how do you explain a man who was born gay getting married and fathering children?

I’m not being snarky with this. I would like to know how you reconcile that fact with your belief that a person’s sexuality cannot be altered by external forces.

 

Gay men who were in the closet were still gay. Their orientation didn't change; rather, they made the decision to keep their orientation secret due to the law, social stigma, their religious beliefs, fear that it would end their career, etc. Insiders knew Rock Hudson was secretly gay. There were, of course, other men like Marlon Brando, who was openly bisexual.

 

So you accept that people can behave contrary to their innate sexuality in response to external forces. I see that as contradicting your statement in your first post: Children are not turned gay by knowing about homosexuality. Children don't develop gender dysphoria by knowing about it.

So, you would then accept that a child could be steered towards homosexual behavior, even if that is not their innate sexuality. Hence the concern for many parents for the type of presentation described in the OP.

 

Some other related issues:

Effectiveness of "conversion therapy" and analogs - https://www.health.state.mn.us/people/conversiontherapy.pdf

Efficacy. In 1991, the author of an early comprehensive examination of conversion therapy concluded: “There is no evidence from any of the studies reviewed here to suggest that sexual orientation can be changed.” 11 Nearly 20 years later, in 2009, a task force of the APA conducted a systematic review of the peer-reviewed journal literature on sexual orientation change efforts, particularly during more recent years. The task force noted a dearthof scientifically sound research on the safety of sexual orientation change efforts (SOCE), “because no study to date of adequate scientific rigor has been explicitly designed to do so.”12 Relying on the few studies it deemed “true experiments or quasi-experiments,” all conducted from 1969 to 1978, the task force concluded that it is “unlikely that individuals will be able to reduce same sex attractions or increase other-sex sexual attractions through SOCE.” The APA resolved “there is insufficient evidence to support the use of psychological interventions to change sexual orientation.” 13 Mainstream mental health organizations support this conclusion. 14 15 MDH did not find scientific studies to support the effectiveness of conversion therapy practices.

Also, even most pedophiles who abuse same sex children are in heterosexual marriages

Sexuality of Offenders

Science and case management experience has shown us that most child molesters are heterosexual. Abuse is about power and control and is not anchored by sexual orientation. Dr. Gene Abel, a researcher in the field of sexual violence for over twenty-five years, wrote an article for the average parent in Redbook magazine to take the knowledge he gained in doing over 100 scientific articles to provide specific warning signs for parents and caregivers. In this article, he explicitly states that most cases of boys being molested are attributed to heterosexuals.

"…[M]ost men who molest little boys are not gay. Only 21 percent of the child molesters we studied who assault little boys were exclusively homosexual. Nearly 80 percent of the men who molested little boys were heterosexual or bisexual and most of these men were married and had children of their own."

Dr. A. Nicholas Groth, researcher on adult male offenders and author of “Men Who Rape: Psychology of the Offender”, states that it is a myth that adult males who molest boys are homosexual. He provides several clinical examples to back up his finding including the connection that molesters see themselves in their victims, but would not be attracted to adult males.

"…They see the boy as a projected representation of themselves. They feel themselves to be more child than adult – more boys than men – and therefore find themselves more comfortable (especially sexually) in the company of children...." (Groth, 1982)

Medical data backs up this psychological observation. In a 1994 study, researchers reviewed 352 medical charts, representing all of the children seen in the emergency room or child abuse clinic of a Denver children’s hospital as a result of being sexually abused. In looking at charts for a one year period (from July 1, 1991 to June 30, 1992), the researchers found that the molester was a gay or lesbian adult in fewer than 1 percent of cases (2 of 269) in which the adult molester could be identified. (Jenny, Roesler, and Poyer, 1994).

 

People can pretend to be who they're not for a variety of reasons. They usually cannot maintain it, and it is still not who they are.

 

I wonder how much is nature and how much is nurture.