Coronavirus in the United States - news and thoughts

Not for a live donor. Live donors don't generally say "I am giving up my kidney for whoever the hospital thinks is the most in need." It is a specific recipient/donor combo.

Well, you are making an argument here for it.

It is both. The recipient has a lower chance of survival as does the live donor. That makes the ethical choice different, so that is why they are handled differently. That isn't hypocrisy. Handling different situations differently is not hypocrisy.

 

Lol I didn't change anything.

The first picture showed you the most recent big spike that is 313 deaths.

The second picture shows you the last big spike on Jan 2nd, 2021 that had 285 deaths. All data is from Michigan that NYT collects and post on their website.

So only I am taking carefully selected counties but you are not... makes sense.

 

Right, explicit matches wouldn't (shouldn't) have the same scoring standards, but in terms of scoring, I'm fine with vaccination being considered a factor.

Hopefully. But "actively campaigning" implies a passion that I don't quite have on this issue. I think just increasing awareness while at the same time adding my opinion is all I'm gunning for here.

it's hypocritical because the unit is only caring about the success rate of the transplants rather than the total number of lives that can be improved upon. I'm not seeing the ethical quality of denying a willing donor, and again, we're talking about vaccination status, not even COVID status, can a kidney not be screened for COVID?

Go GATORS!
,WESGATORS

 

No, it was a different picture. The spike wasn't there in the first graph. Also, there hasn't been a 313 death date. I provided the data. There are 0 deaths in that chart on google for November 23, 25, 26, 27, and 28 and 313 for November 24. Do you think that is accurate?

Actually, yes, it does. I didn't select specific counties out that just met my criteria. Let me do that to show you the difference:

Washtenaw County has one of the highest rates of vaccinations in the state (it is where Ann Arbor is): 73.03% of all residents are vaccinated. And their case rate is one of the lowest: 62 per 100K.

Meanwhile, Montcalm has a lower vaccination rate compared to the state: 45.47%, while it has a much higher infection rate: 106 per 100K.

 

Look don't take it from me. I am just googling "Michigan Coronavirus". I can't go in and manipulate the NYT data...

michgina coronavirus - Google Search


My point is you would have to go in and find the average of every county since plenty of highly vaccinated counties are having close the same level of cases per 100k as lower vaccinated counties.

Its not a good situation no matter what. Vaccines are clearly not working to prevent spread. Hopefully thye hold-up keeping deaths lower but so far even that is looking grim.

 

Michigan is currently #28 in terms of fully vaxxed per population.
Their highest 7-day avg for daily deaths were in April (145) and December (129) 2020. The current 7-day avg is 79. They might end up eclipsing one of the previous peaks, but are not exactly close at the moment.
The reported death number you are referring to might have included the holiday weekend (i.e. not necessarily "daily").

 

Here's a good article on what the Thanksgiving holiday is doing to COVID data. We often see a weekend dip due to doctor's offices being closed, followed by a Monday blip after everything gets recorded. But with Thanksgiving, we basically had a 4-day weekend. The result is the data is going to be skewed if you just look at daily totals. But will be evened out if you look at weekly or monthly totals.

Also, looking at total cases per 100k may not be a great measure. Population density plays a factor. The virus needs person to person contact to transmit, which might be the reason why a highly vaccinated, densely populated area could have the same rate per 100k than a less vaccinated, but more rural county. Simply more vectors the virus can move through at close range. Death rate per 100k would probably be a better measure for vaccine efficacy if you are comparing rural versus urban/suburban with high population density.

 

The reported date is before thanksgiving. Nov 24th is the last reported deaths on NYT website.

 

Under the map, click the Vaccinations tab: Michigan Coronavirus Map and Case Count

 

Again, the article you were discussing is a policy in which explicit matches have to be vaccinated on both sides. That is a perfectly reasonable requirement for trying to mitigate a risk of 20-30% mortality if a person becomes infected.

You seemed pretty emotional about it to me.

A. That isn't hypocrisy. Hypocrisy would be if hospitals generally didn't care about recipient health or were actually always acting under the ethical rule of maximizing total number of lives that can be improved upon.
B. Hospitals have never operated on the ethical rule of maximizing total number of lives that can be improved upon. If they did, we would have no organ shortages, because hospitals would occasionally just kill and harvest organs from a healthy donor, as they would harm 1 life and improve many others.

 

Gotcha, thanks. But if you look at the dates prior to Nov 24th, the point about deaths not being reported is substantiated.

Zero deaths reported Oct 30, 31, Nov 2, 4, 6, 7, 9, 11, 13, 14, 16, 18, 20, 23

Those zeros are driving the daily total up on the other days. As I mentioned previously, the daily total should be disregarded or at least not used as an arguing point. I checked the dates leading up to the spikes in April/Dec of 2020 and there are not the same frequency of zeroes, more like 1x/week (perhaps a Sunday). Right now, MI is basically only reporting deaths every other day. You see how that might drive up the daily total?

 

Got it now. Thanks. I think you'll find everyone here pretty much agrees about Cuomo, even those who supported him early on.

 

same thing happened in 2020 and 2021.

 

And see, that is where you are saying something that is false again. "Vaccines are clearly not working to prevent spread." The data has consistently shown that being vaccinated lowers your probability of getting Covid. Now, when you look at state after state going through spikes, the counties that have lower vaccination rates have the highest infection rate in the last spike. That was true in Louisiana (my state), where the Western part of the state led the way, Florida (rural central and northern Florida), New York (rural upstate), and now in Michigan (the rural central part of the state).

 

Report: Biden to Delay Suspension of Unvaccinated Federal Workers Until After Holidays | Newsmax.com

The White House Office of Management and Budget is reportedly telling federal agencies they can hold off suspending or firing federal workers for not complying with a vaccine mandate until after the holidays.

 

Judge Blocks CMS Vaccine Mandate for Healthcare Workers in 10 States | Newsmax.com

Matthew Schelp, a judge from the Eastern District of Missouri, blocked a Biden administration mandate Monday in 10 states that required COVID-19 vaccinations for healthcare workers, according to the Springfield News-Leader.

Schelp cited in the ruling that regulations handed down by the Centers for Medicare & Medicaid (CMS) did not receive approval from Congress to mandate vaccinations for health-care workers, which he argued was necessary given the mandate's "vast economic and political significance."



Matthew Schelp, a judge from the Eastern District of Missouri, blocked a Biden administration mandate Monday in 10 states that required COVID-19 vaccinations for healthcare workers, according to the Springfield News-Leader.

Schelp cited in the ruling that regulations handed down by the Centers for Medicare & Medicaid (CMS) did not receive approval from Congress to mandate vaccinations for health-care workers, which he argued was necessary given the mandate's "vast economic and political significance."

The CMS mandate was also issued without a standard period for public comment, Schelp ruled.
"Truly, the impact of this mandate reaches far beyond COVID," Schelp wrote. "CMS seeks to overtake an area of traditional state authority by imposing an unprecedented demand to federally dictate the private medical decisions of millions of Americans. Such action challenges traditional notions of federalism."

Schelp also argued, CMS "lacks evidence showing that vaccination status has a direct impact on spreading COVID" in health-care facilities.

Eric Schmitt, the attorney general of Missouri, led the lawsuit alongside Nebraska, Arkansas, Kansas, Iowa, Wyoming, Alaska, South Dakota, North Dakota, and New Hampshire. The order will block health-care providers in those states from requiring workers to receive COVID-19 vaccines while the injunction stands.

If the administration appeals the injunction, it will land in the 8th Circuit, which has just one active or senior status judge appointed by a Democrat out of 14, Bloomberg reported.

 

It does an amazing job in the first 3 months. By months 4-6, it drops below 50%. By month 9 they cant tell if you are vaccinated or not.
Its why booster must go in my month 6.

Pfizer/BioNTech COVID-19 vaccine effectiveness drops after 6 months, study shows

The data for spreading the virus is even worse. By month 3, there is almost no protection from a vaccinated person spreading the virus if they get infected which we now know diminishes quickly 5-6 months in.

If your statement was true, why is a country like Ireland that is 75% vaccinated peaking? Why did Israel have the same problem? The UK?

With all that said, I am not against vaccines. I am just against vaccine mandates. Don't mandate something that is not working to stop the spread. If people want it for protection against serious illness, they should get it. Many people are stupid not to get it.

 

I agree with just about everything you are saying minus the idea of a Covid vaccination being a requirement. There is not enough data to support such a requirement. In fact the data may support the opposite. And if we are going to make it a requirement. How many boosters are required? Which drugs/boosters? These are different drugs and doses. Yet we are trying to coerce people into a one size fits all treatment.

This is the antithesis of Medicine. Which is a combination of Art and Science as the human body is just so complex and every person is different.

 

The whole "I am not against vaccines, I am against vaccination mandates" is little more than framing it in your mind. Why be in favor of vaccines if they are completely ineffective, which is what you have been arguing, while leaving yourself some wiggle room to try to frame it to yourself.

Base rate fallacy to talk about Ireland "peaking." Ireland's current death rate for Covid is much lower than Florida's from a few weeks ago (when we can actually see most of the deaths in Florida). That was when people here started talking about how it was all over in Florida, with a higher death rate than the peak you just described. If you start from a low level, a peak is much smaller than if you start from a high level of infection.

 

What is enough data? And what data, specifically?

Not sure how you can say that the development of vaccines is not science.