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  1. Hi there... Can you please quickly check to make sure your email address is up to date here? Just in case we need to reach out to you or you lose your password. Muchero thanks!

Bulldozing historic St. Augustine and Miami art deco

Discussion in 'Too Hot for Swamp Gas' started by tampagtr, Apr 30, 2023.

  1. tampagtr

    tampagtr VIP Member

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    Looks like some GOP legislators want to get away from the culture war and to focus on earning their bribes in the remainder of the session. In the claimed cause of climate change resiliency.

    More Tallahassee preemption of Home Rule, the same impulse that motivated Tampa’s tree protection


    A pair of related bills rapidly advancing through the Florida Legislature would eviscerate protections for historic buildings and districts in coastal areas across the state, allowing property owners and developers to bypass local regulations and bulldoze and redevelop much of Miami Beach, among many other places.

    That would include the iconic Art Deco hotel row on Ocean Drive, as well as famed neighborhoods like Key West’s Old Town, the town of Palm Beach and Fernandina Beach.

    The bills, SB 1317 and HB 1346, sponsored by Republicans Sen. Bryan Avila and Rep. Spencer Roach, are causing alarm among preservationists and municipal officials statewide, including shocked elected officials in St. Augustine — the oldest city in the United States — as they realize their potentially devastating implications. One preservation group in Miami Beach called the legislation “the end of historic preservation in coastal Florida.” Another critic likened it to “an atom bomb.”





    Protection for historic coastal properties could be gutted under new Florida bills
    Protection for historic coastal properties could be gutted under new Florida bills - Tampa Bay Times

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    Last edited: Apr 30, 2023
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  2. jjgator55

    jjgator55 VIP Member

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    If a structure is considered unsafe then it either needs to be renovated to make it safe, or torn down. However I seriously doubt public safety has anything to do with this bill, but more likely payback for campaign contributions.
     
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  3. tampagtr

    tampagtr VIP Member

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    Public safety is the ruse, nothing more
     
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  4. sierragator

    sierragator GC Hall of Fame

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    Lemme guess, these are the same folks who whine about erasing history.:rolleyes:
     
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  5. tilly

    tilly Superhero Mod. Fast witted. Bulletproof posts. Moderator VIP Member

    Seems counterproductive to the land owner though. The history IS the draw.
    It IS the attraction.

    Beaches are everywhere. The Art Deco district is not.

    Of course, what do I know? :rolleyes:
     
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  6. wgbgator

    wgbgator Premium Member

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    That's what you think, but that mentality doesnt sell luxury condos to shady Brazilian/Venezuelan investors who never live in them
     
    Last edited: May 1, 2023
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  7. BLING

    BLING GC Hall of Fame

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    For the most part, I think property owners should be able to do what they want (within the realm of modern building codes of course, and South Beach can have standards for aesthetics to keep the art-deco look). I don’t think the state should overrule building codes (like if the city wants to keep things small and limit high rises).

    If a state/city/govt wants to lock something in as a “historic site” they should look to acquire the property or work with the owner (grants and such to refurbish historic sites). But if a building is derelict or starting to outlive it’s useful life it’s not good to just freeze it from development. I’m not against historic sites, but not everything can or should be preserved. Sometimes it just isn’t practical.
     
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  8. philnotfil

    philnotfil GC Hall of Fame

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    Downtown St Augustine traffic is a mess. It can be fixed by tearing out a bunch of historic stuff, but that is what draws people there, so if they tear out the historic stuff to fix the traffic, then they won't have to fix the traffic :)
     
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  9. philnotfil

    philnotfil GC Hall of Fame

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    We almost bought a rundown old house in St Augustine, it was going to take a ton of work to make it nice again, but we were willing to put in the elbow grease. Then we found out that because of its historic status doing things like adding air conditioning were a no go, so we didn't buy it and it continues to rot.
     
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  10. tilly

    tilly Superhero Mod. Fast witted. Bulletproof posts. Moderator VIP Member

    Yeah, thats sorta what I'm getting at. Seems counterproductive.
     
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  11. tampagtr

    tampagtr VIP Member

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    There can be a lot of problems in application of local standards, especially historical standards, but my major point is that the state should never preempt local standards. We have that in Tampa with Ybor City. And a lot of complications are involved in trying to draft and apply these standards, which may at least partially explain seemingly nonsensical results

    Also, Saint Augustine is an especially sensitive issue, at least to me, because of the fact that it’s so often overlooked when we talk about Europeans in what is now the United States. We always default to Virginia and the English.
     
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  12. Swamplizard

    Swamplizard VIP Member

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    I'm not sure they can touch St Augustine at all, maybe some outlying areas but not the National Historic Landmark District which is pretty much all of downtown St Augustine
     
  13. tampagtr

    tampagtr VIP Member

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    From today's Florida Politics text service, an interesting note on preemption. Won't pass, but I love it


    Amendments getting chippy -

    An amendment to a bill allowing businesses to local governments to overturn local ordinances would require a public shaming of DeSantis and legislative Republicans.

    Filed by Democratic Rep. Yvonne Hinson, the text would require a newspaper ad as well as a mailer to every voter saying: "BY THE ORDER OF GOVERNOR RON DESANTIS AND THE MAJORITY OF THE FLORIDA LEGISLATURE, DESPITE APPROVAL BY LOCAL, DEMOCRATICALLY ELECTED LEADERS, THE STATE OF FLORIDA HAS DETERMINED THIS LOCAL ORDINANCE IS NOW NULL AND VOID."

    Not going to happen, but funny nonetheless.
     
    Last edited: May 2, 2023
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  14. G8trGr8t

    G8trGr8t Premium Member

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    nothing to stop local gubmnts upset over the preemption from running the ad
     
  15. tampagtr

    tampagtr VIP Member

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    Good idea, except it invites further retribution
     
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  16. tampagtr

    tampagtr VIP Member

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    More state preemption of local ordinances, this one to prevent fertilizer runoff


    TALLAHASSEE — Florida legislators are poised to block one of the most effective tools local governments say they have to protect water quality in their communities in the face of red tide and blue-green algae outbreaks by banning rainy season restrictions on fertilizer use.

    A measure quietly tucked into a budget proposal over the weekend would prohibit at least 117 local governments from “adopting or amending a fertilizer management ordinance” during the 2023-24 budget year, requiring them to rely on less restrictive regulations developed by the University of Florida, which are supported by the state’s phosphate industry, the producers of fertilizer.

    Legislative leaders tentatively agreed to a $116 billion budget on Monday and, with no public debate or discussion, included the fertilizer language that emerged late Sunday.

    It is the latest proposal to emerge in a legislative session that has fast-tracked industry-friendly bills aimed at removing local control and public input over emotionally charged environmental and development issues.


    Florida lawmakers eye ban on fertilizer use restrictions
    Florida lawmakers eye ban on fertilizer use restrictions - Tampa Bay Times

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  17. G8trGr8t

    G8trGr8t Premium Member

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    meanwhile the WMD governing board has new nutrient removal rules pending with the legislature that will require 90% removal of nitrogen and phosphorous for all new development. Sounds good but it is nearly impossible to achieve without polishing systems and large increase in land set aside for water quality treatment.

    Current nutrient reduction rules are pre v post, ie you cannot discharge more nitrogen and phosphorous off than the existing property does such that the development ends up being either neutral or net positive.

    Meanwhile, big ag (cattle, dairy, sugar cane) and municipal sludge disposal skates by free of any meaningful regulation while being the major (by far) contributors to the nutrient load problem.

    This all adds cost to the price of housing and business while doing very little to actually improve the situation.

    These new rules are the equivalent of having new development pick the flychit out of the pepper while big ag is dumping truckloads of manure on the same pepper pile.
     
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  18. swampbabe

    swampbabe GC Hall of Fame

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    In addition, here in Brevard we have a half penny sales tax to rehabilitate the Indian River Lagoon. While fertilizers are not the only problem we have, it certainly contributes to the mess.
     
  19. G8trGr8t

    G8trGr8t Premium Member

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    that area needs to either eliminate septic tanks or require inspections to confirm that they are properly sized, constructed, and maintained.

    lots of contributors to the problem but some are much more significant than others. this legislature is passing the low hanging fruit with the most impact
     
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  20. tampagtr

    tampagtr VIP Member

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    Thanks. very informative. My knowledge on the subject, such as it is, is purely derivative. My buddy who is an oceanographer tells me about the impact of runoff, but I have knowledge of design restraints, regs., etc.