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War in Ukraine

Discussion in 'Too Hot for Swamp Gas' started by PITBOSS, Jan 21, 2022.

  1. slocala

    slocala VIP Member

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    Feels gross we are “pay for defense”. Minerals for Fat Tony protection.
    [​IMG]
     
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  2. JustaGator

    JustaGator Senior

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    Thanks, but my professional reading list dance card is full and my Fingerspitzengefühl somehow is still intact after all these years.

    Of course you are welcome to get our your German pocket dictionary and try Führungsdenken by Gerhard Groß, or if you prefer your German in English, The Blitzkrieg Legend by Karl-Heinz Frieser. Kennedy's The Rise and Fall of Great Powers or Kagan's, The Peloponnesian War are classics that I keep coming back to due to their timeless lessons on warfare and men. Plokhy's The Russo-Ukrainian War: the Return of History was good background on the current conflict as was Ponomarenko's I Will Show You How it Was. Zygar's War and Punishment and Miller's The War Came to Us are up next on that end after I finish Graff's When the Sea Came Alive: An Oral History of D-Day.

    1. I didn't say that any amount of weapons would do anything more than save lives that could have been better used to defend the country (because you didn't read the post - remember) but more weapons sooner would have allowed Ukraine to do exactly that.

    Ukraine has remained in the war, but how easier would it have been to avoid AWOL soldiers and fighting age men leaving the country in droves if they'd had the confidence their allies were fully supporting them with every available means yesterday including armor and air assets they had begged for and begrudgingly receive late and in too few numbers.

    As far as the Ukrainians "crushing the Russians" they have already done it many times over.

    First they crushed their "professional" military, then crushed their mercenary army, then crushed their allies' armies, and now they crushing their meat assault army.

    Besides completely ignoring the political factors that had us squander military opportunities for 3 years while we and our NATO allies clutched pearls, hedged against the comfortable black Russian money lining our corrupt pockets in many places, and slow walked weapon systems onto the battlefield so that we squandered advantages Ukrainian could have had - or were our logistics too tied up to deliver our 1980s vintage weapons in storage waiting to be used two countries over.

    Fact is we tried to incrementally eat the Russian bear and found out in the end there was too much Bear for our limited appetite when the Russians pay good money to corrupt politicians and we can be friends in the end.

    In any case, since you don't read my posts, there is no need to respond.
     
  3. uftaipan

    uftaipan GC Hall of Fame

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    I quite agree. To paraphrase FDR, when your neighbor’s house is on fire and he needs to use your hose, you don’t quibble about the price while the fire is burning. Still, I would prefer the quibbling to, say, “Go [stuff] yourself. It’s probably your fault your house is on fire. Let the [motor scooter] burn!” But most of all I would prefer, “Of course you can use my hose. In fact, let me help, and let’s get all of the neighbors over here to help. I don’t want to see the fire spread.”
     
  4. JustaGator

    JustaGator Senior

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    I think you just forgot I just told you they started the goddam war WITH the Nazis as they fumbled over stabbing each other in the back over partitioning Poland behind the Poles' backs.

    That we chose to give them $11.3 billion dollars of Lend-Lease in 1941, without which the Nazis would have had all the Lebensraum they wanted, is the real mystery to me - especially after what they did to Ukraine during the Holodomor, their own army officer corps before World War 2, or the millions of their own citizens before and after World War 2.

    In hindsight, Patton's stance on Russia was absolutely spot on.

    It would have been better to feed them weapons and munitions like we did to Ukraine and let the Nazis and Russians fight to the last man and then let Patton clean up what was left.

    The world would have been better off that what we've ended up with here.
     
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2025 at 10:26 PM
  5. G8trGr8t

    G8trGr8t Premium Member

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    dt threatens Europe. Capitulate within 3 weeks or the US will withdraw from Europe. hope they tell him to f off

    is congress going to stand for this?

    praising putin, threatening ukraine, now threatening our euopean allies..wth MAGA

    who at the Pentagon is going to tell them how critical it is for those bases to be there for the military to do their missions

    Trump Gave Europe Three Weeks to Sign Off on Ukraine 'Surrender': MEP

    In a post on X, formerly Twitter, Finland's Mika Aaltola of the European People's Party claimed that the U.S. "has given us three weeks to agree on terms for Ukraine's surrender," referring to a proposed peace deal aimed at ending the war.

    "If we don't, the United States will withdraw from Europe," Aaltola added.

    He didn't provide evidence for his claims.

    NBC News, citing U.S. officials, reported that Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth told Ukrainian officials in a closed-door meeting that Washington may significantly reduce its troop presence in Europe. The report is based on sources with knowledge of private discussions between the Trump administration and the Ukrainian government.
     
  6. homer

    homer GC Hall of Fame

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    Crazy Prediction.

    Trump pulls all US military out of Europe. Once they are back Musk terminates all of them without notice.
     
  7. sierragator

    sierragator GC Hall of Fame

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    Put a fork in nato. Thanks gop.
    He'll fire anyone who resists or tries to talk him out of it. Putin's wet dream come true. This does not make us more safe.
     
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  8. chemgator

    chemgator GC Hall of Fame

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    The difference is that Stalin was the lesser of two evils, and Russia had the manpower, if properly supplied with weapons and clothing and trucks, to defeat Nazi Germany. Yes, FDR should have recognized the horrors of Stalin's brutal regime and done some things to limit his advance on Germany. But at least FDR could recognize the greater of the two evils, which was Hitler. Trump cannot seem to figure that out when he throws Zelenskyy under the bus and blames him for a war that Putin started. It may be Trump's loyalty to the first foreign leader he ever became friends with, or something more nefarious. Either way, it is disgraceful that Trump is not smart enough to recognize the horror of a marauding mass murderer like Putin.
     
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  9. duggers_dad

    duggers_dad GC Hall of Fame

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    I like it!
     
  10. chemgator

    chemgator GC Hall of Fame

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    Russia did the heavy lifting so they could relocate all of the treasures of Berlin to Moscow. Russians have always been marauding barbarians, with the exception of a few years under Gorbachev. If there is a problem or an opportunity, Russians will look to threaten the outside party, and if that doesn't get them what they want, violence is always an option. If Russia did the right thing, you can rest assured it was an accident. The only reason that Russia did the right thing in WWII is that their trusted partner in crime, Nazi Germany, turned on them and took all of Poland and tried to take Moscow.

    The U.S. made nothing but sacrifices in WWII, and got very little out of the war other than respect of the other nations in the war. Many nations were introduced to democracy, and the entire world recognized both the power and the system of justice (and international laws) promoted by America. We weren't perfect, but we were more qualified than any other country on earth to lead the world. The U.S. could have easily cut a deal with Japan (before Dec 7, 1941) and another one with Germany to give Asia and Europe up to them, saying "it's not in our backyard, so its not our fight." (Many ignorant Americans wanted exactly that.) The U.S. choose the more difficult path, and the world is a better place for the sacrifices that the U.S. made. If you can't understand that, you probably have no business studying history or discussing international politics and war.
     
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  11. duggers_dad

    duggers_dad GC Hall of Fame

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    The U.S. has been at war 93% of its existence. Has engineered some 400 military interventions in that time, some 200 since the end of the Cold War at a cost of some 20 million lives. Has roughly 750 military bases, garrisons and outposts in 80 countries, including many which Ring Russia.

    But Russia.
     
  12. chemgator

    chemgator GC Hall of Fame

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    For over 60 years, Russia was the primary threat to America and our trading partners and allies. Of all the countries that were part of the winning coalition of countries in WWII, Russia was the only one that was looking to steal resources and land from other countries, and subjugate other countries, which they did in eastern Europe. Even England, once one of the most imperialistic nations, recognized the need to start freeing their colonies, with India, Singapore and Malaysia all becoming independent and democratic in the next couple of decades.

    When you act like a dangerous thug, you should expect the police to set up surveillance around your property. Russia acted like an international thug, and those bases are the U.S. response. If Russia was not dangerous, the U.S. would not have set up bases. It's sad that you can't understand that.
     
  13. JustaGator

    JustaGator Senior

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    Of course we do, have your seen our excellent geography?

    Until 4 weeks ago, we haven't had any local enemies to worry about since Pancho Villa in 1913!

    Of course we have to keep watch on the remnants of the Mongol hordes - no one wants nekulturny Russia - or China, for that matter, as a neighbor!

    Hire a better PR firm or stop invading your neighbors if you don't want to be shunned!
     
  14. duggers_dad

    duggers_dad GC Hall of Fame

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    Your thug has thoroughly humiliated your designs to date. But there’s still a glimmer of hope, however vanishingly small, that you can rage-type Russia to its defeat. Rage! Type! RAGE! TYPE!
     
  15. duggers_dad

    duggers_dad GC Hall of Fame

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    Seems to me the fact that we are surrounded by great oceans and benign nations has kept us safe.

    I just think you have to have mortal enemies hand probably prune juice) to get through your day.
     
  16. duggers_dad

    duggers_dad GC Hall of Fame

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    I must say Caitlin is ferocious …

    These histrionics are as depraved as they are ridiculous. Obviously the war in Ukraine needs to end. Polls say Ukrainians themselves want the war to end. If you want Ukrainians to keep dying in this war against the will of the Ukrainians themselves while you sit safe at home eating snacks and posting on the internet, you’re a MONSTER …

    Caitlin Johnstone: Opposing Peace in Ukraine
     
  17. chemgator

    chemgator GC Hall of Fame

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    The only reason that the Soviet Union was not at war 100% of the time is that they set up a series of neighboring countries as vassal states. Russians were ignorant enough to think that these countries were necessary for their security (in addition to being valuable sources of income from subjugation), but the collapse of the USSR proved that there was no threat to Russia from or through these states when they were freed.

    Of course, Russia exporting war to the U.S. by arming third party countries to the teeth (sometimes arming insurgents within the country to encourage a Marxist revolution or just to produce chaos) also explains a lot of the wars that the U.S. was in. That was a big part of why the U.S. was in so many wars. Russia has spent most of the last century making the world a more dangerous place to live. You might have been able to learn some of these things if you were paying more attention in your history classes.
     
  18. duggers_dad

    duggers_dad GC Hall of Fame

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    This post flagged for irony.
     
  19. vegasfox

    vegasfox GC Hall of Fame

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    If Ukraine had honored the Minsk agreements and had not started shelling the Donbas February 16, 2022, Russia would not have invaded. As Angela Merkel admitted, the Minsk agreements were "a ruse."
    June 23, 2022 tweet:

     
  20. chemgator

    chemgator GC Hall of Fame

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    Ahh, the ignorant "you're a MONSTER" trope, if you don't mind me tripping your trope. No one is forcing Ukraine to fight Russia. Ukraine is fighting willingly. I don't see any polls indicating that Ukrainians want their country to SURRENDER to Russia. Obviously, they want the war to end--who wouldn't? That's Master of the Obvious-type polling right there. {Time to set the trope-trap.} Get back to us when the majority of Ukrainians are demanding a complete and immediate surrender to Russia.

    If you want Ukrainians to become slaves to Russian masters and victims of Russian torture centers, you're a MONSTER! How does that grab you, Russophile trope-man?
     
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