Science proves that prayer doesn't work ... maybe makes things worse ...

Believing in God can psychologically help someone in ways (surrendering mimics an acknowledgement of the fact that there is very we have control over and releases that burden), but it can also go farther than that and disregard the part that we can actually control, which is our actions and responses.

The later can harm.

 

Maybe it only works when you mix in some thoughts with the prayers.

Imagine getting a surprise hospital bill for $1463 for prayers. Medicare isn't going to cover it because it's a violation of separation of church and state. Maybe Medi-share will cover it. That'll get people going to church!

 

A single test run by to create doubt. You guys are easily fooled. Although my faith has diminished since November.

 

Plot twist: they were praying to the wrong God.

For real, why is this a study? The culmination of a PhD for this? $2.4m that could have been used to increase Harvard’s class size. Let people believe in what they want, especially this.

 

We know that had the studies suggested that prayer worked I’d have baptized you by now.

Oh well, can’t rein them all in.

 

What is the measure of prayer working? A person gets whatever it is they are praying for? That's not how prayer works. We can pray all day long and it doesn't mean we will get the outcome we desire. If you truly believe in a divine God, his plan may not include you getting what you ask for. Science can't measure that, and anyone thinking it can truly doesn't understand the nature of prayer. Not an easy concept to accept but one that must be acknowledged. And the bible does not state anything about relying solely on prayer, at the expense of using common sense, for certain outcomes.

 

Well, when a person chooses to not get treatment for themselves or their child because they think they can “pray the cancer away”, I think that would be pretty definitive.

This study doesn’t get at that group though, it seems to look at people who receive care and pray vs don’t pray. That is definitely a harder thing to define. So how to arrive at 7% difference (7% doesn’t seem huge, did they all receive like-for-like health care - at the same facility?). 7% worse seems like it could just be noise in the data vs the rational base case of 0%.

 

My enemies are still alive, so yeah, I'm thinking prayer doesnt work

 

The bible is the word of the Lord. I believe it and will find out someday. I pray many times every day. Unanswered prayers are probably the best as I have no idea the workings of the universe. I do completely believe we are better through prayer.

 

God doesn’t expect to do all our thinking for us. See: Deuteronomy 29:29. Presumably the wiser Christian might consider foregoing cancer treatments that are likely to kill the loved one. But we’ve made a god of public health and that smacks of idolatry to this Christian.

 

Bear in mind our disputants are people who read literature which maintains the Sun was created on the FOURTH DAY, but insist we interpret the flood as being 22 feet higher than Mt. Everest. No nuance will be entertained.

 

Prayer is misunderstood, especially by the fundamentalists. Prayer is a form of meditation that can calm the mind leading the person to make better decisions. Unfortunately too many think God is Santa Clause that will bring them what they want. I believe God answers prayers in ways we don’t expect. This reminds me of this story:


A fellow was stuck on his rooftop in a flood. He was praying to God for help.

Soon a man in a rowboat came by and the fellow shouted to the man on the roof, “Jump in, I can save you.”

The stranded fellow shouted back, “No, it’s OK, I’m praying to God and he is going to save me.”

So the rowboat went on.

Then a motorboat came by. “The fellow in the motorboat shouted, “Jump in, I can save you.”

To this the stranded man said, “No thanks, I’m praying to God and he is going to save me. I have faith.”

So the motorboat went on.

Then a helicopter came by and the pilot shouted down, “Grab this rope and I will lift you to safety.”

To this the stranded man again replied, “No thanks, I’m praying to God and he is going to save me. I have faith.”

So the helicopter reluctantly flew away.

Soon the water rose above the rooftop and the man drowned. He went to Heaven. He finally got his chance to discuss this whole situation with God, at which point he exclaimed, “I had faith in you but you didn’t save me, you let me drown. I don’t understand why!”

To this God replied, “I sent you a rowboat and a motorboat and a helicopter, what more did you expect?”

 

Hence the problem having a rational discussion about religion. There are not even goal posts for the religious to move, as there’s always a made up answer for every possible outcome.

 

I believe prayer or meditation can be beneficial for the person actually doing those things. That seems much different to me than whether one can confer benefits on others.

 

This is all true, but I remember in the past people would point to certain studies of "prayer working" vs the placebo in certain situations and it didnt invite this sort of philosophical introspection of why such a study was done, etc. And of course, in lots of religious threads, some of the believers like to compare science to a religion too.

Personally I think any form of meditation has positive effects on one's wellbeing and relieves stress, but no one has the power to manifest anything that way. That's when you get into woo woo territory.

 

Worse, they expect the Bible to pass muster with the going science.

 

The claim of the OP is that prayer actually made things 7% worse. Not just that prayer conferred zero benefit. I think finding of 0 statistical benefit would be the base case, or even some very slight placebo effect type benefit of +7. I think that’s what most people would assume. According to the study it’s a -7. That’s interesting, but it’s just one study.

 

Meh. I am Christian but I have a hard time thinking that God is playing heavenly golf waiting for enough prayers to catch His attention before waving the cancer cure magic wand.