Apeals court: Release Jack Smith’s report

why, can I not be critical of someone in the party that I once supported? Is dissent not allowable in your world? silly me, MAGA doesn't tolerate dissenting opinion...

 

Was actually looking for a date, not an explanation. Based on your opinions of Thoams and Alito, it would seem to be pre-2008.

Would the execution of a US Citizen that has not be found guilty of a crime in a US Court of law by drone strike be an unlawful order given by a superior?

 

Because they have been on the SCOTUS bench well before Trump showed up. Did you support their confirmations or not?

 

Listen man, I've told you I'm not going to discuss this topic with you because you clearly have your mind made up and anything I point out about vaccine skepticism's history is going to turn into 5 paragraph post which will not make one bit of difference in the end. It is a waste of my time to debate this with you, so I would suggest moving along.

 

30 years back I wasn't following Supreme confirmation hearings. Wth does that have to do with not tolerating bias and corruption on the bench? Dem or pub, I don't care.

 

Well did Thomas and Alito become corrupt and develop bias on the bench or did they have it before. Alito was confirmed in '06, were you following SCOTUS confirmations then?

 

Don't think so under current rules if said citizen is involved in imminent threat. You know more about that than me.
Would shooting nonviolent protestors or fleeing immigrants be a lawful order. When djt tells vheggie to shoot a few of em in the legs will he say no? He wouldn't answer the question. Apparently you won't either

 

How do you define an imminent threat? Is it time based? Distance based? The point you do not seem to get is that what an "unlawful order given by a superior" is not as easy to define as you think.

That is the big miss in the article about Hegseth, written by what I would assume is an enlisted Marine that got out in around '10, that you posted in the thread about him. Is it an illegal order for a national guard unit to open fire on peaceful protestors? Yes it is. But it is never that simple. If the National Guard is being deployed under Title 32, it will not be due to peaceful protests. It will likely due to rioting and non-peaceful protests. When NG deploy they are going to have an escalation of force matrix that is approved by the POTUS and SecDef and agreed to by the NORTHCOM CG and the JTF Commander that will determine when service members on the front line can escalate the level of force they on the protestors. Most NG units do non-lethal training on crowd control and that will be their main effort. But what if the crowds start fighting the NG? What if a NG member is being severely beaten by protestors? That is when the Escalation of Force is used to determine what force a service member can use and typically they have to call up their higher unit to get approval to use it. The idea that Trump is going to call up some Company Commander and demand that he starts open firing on peaceful protestors is not a realistic scenario.

 

he asked his sec def if he could have the protestors shot and used tear gas and clubs to clear peaceful protestors already. did you forget about these or taken out of context? the pretzels you twist to try and defend this sad excuse for a human being are unreal..truly dedicated to defending the indefensible

and this was before he felt invincible with immunity and when he had responsible adults around him willing to tell him no.

Esper: Trump asked about shooting protesters : NPR

Top Pentagon Military Chief Says Accompanying Trump Was Mistake : Updates: The Fight Against Racial Injustice : NPR

Both Milley and Defense Secretary Mark Esper, who also accompanied Trump in his walk across the cleared Lafayette Square, have said they were not aware where Trump was going when they fell in step behind him, and that they thought they were leaving the White House to thank National Guard troops stationed nearby. Aides have also said Milley was dressed in fatigues because he was headed to an FBI operations center.

That excursion across Lafayette Square has been harshly criticized by Trump's first defense secretary, retired Marine Gen. James Mattis, who resigned from that post in December 2018.

"When I joined the military, some 50 years ago, I swore an oath to support and defend the Constitution," Mattis wrote in a statement published last week in The Atlantic. "Never did I dream that troops taking that same oath would be ordered under any circumstance to violate the Constitutional rights of their fellow citizens — much less to provide a bizarre photo op for the elected commander-in-chief, with military leadership standing alongside."

Similar strong criticism of the crackdown on protesters that cleared the way for Trump and his entourage is being leveled by Robert Gates, who was defense secretary in both the George W. Bush and Barack Obama administrations.

 

I did not like what happened on June 1st, 2020 and I think it was a terrible look for the AG, SecDef and CJCS to be with Trump when Trump did that.

The decision to clear the park was made by the Capital Police, I do not believe it was ordered by Trump. Do you think the Capital Police clearing the park using non-lethal means was illegal, other than the officers not being approved to user pepper spray, which they did? The Interior Department Inspector General found that the Park Police were had already made the decision to clear the park in order to install a security fence around it and were not aware of a POTUS visit that was happening. That report was released under the Biden Admin.

https://www.npr.org/2021/06/09/1004...-clear-protesters-to-make-way-for-trump-last-

Here is what I will tell you that should make you feel better, I promise you that there is a now a long brief somewhere in the J3 at the JCS office that has a lessons learned from June 1st, 2020 and how to avoid it happening again, now that Trump is back in office, all GCC CG's probably also have a copy of that brief and are reviewing it ahead of Jan 20th.

 

and when djt orders something in conflict with the directions in the brief, would that be an illegal order? who do you think is going to tell him no? do you think heggie will say no?

 

I've already said Hegseth is not qualified to be SecDef, what more do you want?

I think if the General(s) think the order is illegal, they and their JAG's will tell him and tell him why. If Trump orders them to carry out orders they think are illegal, they will resign and the majority of their staffs will likely resign as well. No officer wants to be the one to carry out orders that their CG just resigned over being given because it will follow them for the rest of their career and into retirement. Once the staff resigns, things really slow down because now you have to get all new people and get them up to speed, and that is assuming you can find officers that are willing to take the job.

Let's just say Trump finds some full bird Colonel that ends up carrying out the order and gets a pardon for his actions. Once Trump is out of office, that Colonel (assumed he is retired by then) is likely to get called back to active duty and court martial for any time he jay walked or did anything worse in his career. He can also forget about any retirement job within the defense industrial base or any large private sector company since he would be radio active. And Trump would have to issue pardons all the way down the chain of command because the the E-3 mafia sure as hell knows to make sure their rear ends are covered as they know they are often the first ones hung out to dry. Knowing them, they will probably want the pardon before hand.

 

I recall reading about the national guard being involved in that too. National guard under the direction of POTUS. Lots of sources on that but this one sums it up nicely.

are you saying the bolded parts didn't happen. Barr was willing to say yes to coordinated national guard activity in states in protest of the governor of that state. you think blondi bondi isn't going to agree to that? she may have been a great person and incredibly intelligent, but she has sold out and will continue to do so until she is dismissed like every other that has told him no, if she ever gets the courage to do so.

Three Fixes to Prevent Another Battle of Lafayette Square | Brennan Center for Justice
One year ago, a mix of soldiers and federal law enforcement, wielding tear gas and shooting rubber bullets, cleared a crowd of people lawfully protesting police brutality after the murder of George Floyd from Washington, D.C.’s Lafayette Square. Then-President Donald Trump and Attorney General William Barr had orchestrated the operation so the president could pose for a photoshoot at St. John’s Episcopal Church. At the same time, thousands of Guardsmen from eleven states deployed into Washington at Trump’s invitation, over the objections of D.C. Mayor Muriel Bowser.

By directing the National Guard to police protests in D.C. and threatening to use the military around the country, Trump violated longstanding norms keeping our military above the political fray, including the bedrock democratic principle known as posse comitatus. Nearly 150 years ago, Congress enshrined that principle into law with the Posse Comitatus Act, which prohibits the use of federal military force for domestic policing except as specified by law. Yet Trump and Barr exploited loopholes in the Act to flood downtown D.C. with troops without any express congressional authorization.


from that same article...imagine the national guard units of the red states banding together to go round up immigrants in the blue states..rdiculous you say..read further


Second, Congress should clarify that governors may not deploy their Guard units into other states or territories without those jurisdictions’ consent. This limitation is arguably inherent in the Constitution. Nonetheless, Barr claimed that a law permitting National Guard units to operate in “hybrid status”—namely, carrying out federal missions while remaining under state command and control—allows governors to deploy their Guard forces out of state even if the host state or territory objects. This unprecedented interpretation not only threatens state sovereignty; it further undermines the principle of posse comitatus. In hybrid status, Guard units are exempt from the Posse Comitatus Act because they are operating under state command. A key element of state command is the governor’s ability to decline a given federal mission. If, however, any governor can send Guard forces into any other jurisdiction, the right to refuse becomes illusory. All the president would need is one willing governor in order to use Guard forces as a domestic police force anywhere in the country. Last June, President Trump found eleven.

Finally, Congress must ensure that the applicability of posse comitatus turns on the facts on the ground, not on legal nomenclature. Out-of-state Guard troops in D.C. last June were exempt from the Posse Comitatus Act because they were nominally under the command and control of their governors. In practice, though, Defense Department officials confirmed that those out-of-state units reported up through the D.C. National Guard’s chain of command—to the president. To ensure future presidents can’t use state governors as cover to wield the National Guard as federal police, Congress should clarify that the Posse Comitatus Act applies in any situation where National Guard units report up to the president or the president’s designee.

 

His supporters would love all of that. Under the guise of " national security" he can send forces into areas he does not like to crack some heads. Think of the ratings.

 

I'm sorry but I'm past the point of trying to explain very complicated things like Command Relationships, OPCON, TACON, ADCON, Supported versus Supporting to you and why it is important based on the articles you are providing. I'll spend the effort trying to explain it to you and then I'm sure you will find something on some left wing site and say "See it says it right here, you are wrong!" and it once again it come down to your lack of understanding of the things I mention above.

If you want to believe that Trump personally ordered some officer in the NG to clear the square, go with God.

 

you assume that there aren't many dedicated maga members within the military willing to do his bidding, especially at the national guard level. The same national guard he deployed th help attack the peaceful protestors in DC

Barr gave him legal cover, which I am sure Bondi will confirm, to amalgamate national guards from willign states and assign them a a job to do in a state that may not want them there. Imagine Texas and Florida teaming up with Montana and Wyoming to send national guard troops to California to round up and detain illegal immigrants under the direction of the immigration czar.

 

no he ordered the national guard to be there and support the capitol police in their unconstitutional a assault on the protestors so he could march thru the smoke and hold a bible for a photo op. this is who you continue to defend on technicalities, like a good partisan lawyer would I guess.

 

it's too complicated for us simpletons to understand, somewhere, there is a technicality that determines it cannot be his fault, and if there isn't, judge cannon will say there is

 

they are here illegally and cally is illegally trying to hide them- outside of killing them, I am all for doing whatever it takes to get rid of them