California's High Speed Rail Project Runs Out of Money

That makes me wonder about a story my grandmother used to tell about when she was a little girl around 1913 or so her mother putting her on a train from Jacksonville to Miami on Flaglers railroad and how exciting it was. She said when she arrived she was in tears because her new white dress was full of holes from flying embers. Anyway I wonder how many hours it took in 1913 and how many stops they made.

 

Does California still have running brownouts? How are they going to power this thing even if they find the money to build it? They are one year of more Tesla car sales from real blackouts already.

 

It is my understanding that the California rolling blackouts (were) are due to manipulating the power grid (shutting sections down) when wind advisories indicate potential arcing between transmission lines in the foothills/Sierras. Several of the recent fires were due to PGE and their lack of maintaining ROW for transmission lines. Two separate issues: power generation versus power transmission.

 

How California’s Bullet Train Went Off the Rails

Now, as the nation embarks on a historic, $1 trillion infrastructure building spree, the tortured effort to build the country’s first high-speed rail system is a case study in how ambitious public works projects can become perilously encumbered by political compromise, unrealistic cost estimates, flawed engineering and a determination to persist on projects that have become, like the crippled financial institutions of 2008, too big to fail.

I hope our representatives take heed of this. I think we are all in favor of upgrades to infrastructure, but politics and grossly underestimating costs have ruined progress for many of such endeavors.

 

Good luck.

 

The track had best be new track as the old track that serves freight trains won't work, unless you consider commuter trains jumping track at 205 mph as workable.

 

It should have been done, although I love the 10-hour car trip from Tampa to Orlando.

 

I live in Orlando and have taken the Brightline HSR to Miami. It actually worked out very well. No stops between Orlando and West Palm Beach. There are then stops in West Palm Beach, Boca, Ft. Lauderdale, Aventura and Miami, but those steps are only around 5 minutes each. It doesn't stop for long.

The only negative is that only the section from Orlando to Cocoa Beach is elevated so that's the only section that is truly high speed. But here's the thing. I can get to the Brightline station at Orlando 30 minutes prior to the departure time. For a flight down to Ft. Lauderdale or Miami, I would have to get to Orlando International Airport 1 1/2 hours prior to the flight (2 hours during holiday times). So that alone saves you an hour.

When you factor in that time, the actual flight and then retrieving your luggage, a flight to South Florida takes 2 1/2 to 3 hours. Brightline takes 3 1/2 hours from Orlando to Miami. So Brightline is only about an extra 30 minutes.

Brightline is about the same length of time, possibly faster depending on traffic, than driving. But more importantly, you get to arrive relaxed and refreshed instead of tired and irritated. Let's say you were staying on Miami Beach. Yes you'll have the Lyft costs to get from the Brightline station to the beach, but that is far cheaper than driving and then having to pay the outrageous parking fees at hotels on the beach. And if you fly you are then still going to have to get an Uber/Lyft/Taxi to the beach from the airport.

The only thing that would hurt the Orlando to Miami Brightline HSR, like you mentioned, is too many stops. HSR has to be between major cities. You don't see HSR in Europe stopping at small podunk cities in the middle of nowhere. Melbourne, Vero Beach, Ft. Pierce and Port Saint Lucie just aren't big enough to justify a stop.

The one thing I think Brightline should do is do some dedicated runs from Orlando to Port Canaveral. I know building HSR over the Indian River and the intercostal would be crazy expensive, but even if they just extended the line to Cocoa and then had buses that went from Cocoa to Port Canaveral.

2 runs from Orlando to Port Canaveral and 2 runs from Port Canaveral back to Orlando would literally print money for Brightline. Besides the tourists that would use it between the airport and the port, you would have locals that would use it for cruises to prevent having to park at the port. That is the only additional run they should put in.

Between Jax and Miami the only non-South Florida stops should be St. Augustine (so that people could use it between Jax and St. Augustine almost as commuter rail) and Daytona Beach. So between Jax and Miami, the only stops would be St. Augustine, Daytona Beach, West Palm Beach, Boca, Ft. Lauderdale and Aventura. Definitely no stops in Titusville, Melbourne, Ft. Pierce or Port Saint Lucie.

 

It can still be done, the thing is it shouldn't be the government doing it. That's why I was against the original HSR that was proposed during Obama.

Let a private company do it and if they fail then it folds, but at least it's not on the taxpayer dime. That's the part Democrats always forget about the original HSR under Obama. Sure Florida would've gotten money to build it, but then all the maintenance would have been the responsibility of the State of Florida. So if it failed and lost money, it would be subsidized on the taxpayer dime.

Sure there was probably government assistance with Brightline getting the right of ways and building some of the elevated tracks, but if Brightline somehow didn't work, it doesn't end up on the taxpayer dime.

I'm Conservative but I was never against HSR, just the government being directly involved in HSR. And with the California HSR, our concerns were 100% justified.

It's the perfect example of private vs government. Florida has private HSR with Brightline and it's now been operating between Orlando and Miami for a year. If it had been the government project that was proposed under Obama, we would still be waiting for it to open.

 

How long does it take from Orlando to Miami.

How long for you to drive from Orlando to Miami?
Plus when you get to Miami you need a vehicle most of the time.

 

All depends on traffic. That's the point, you don't truly know. It can be 3 1/2 hours. It could be 5 or 6 hours if there are wrecks and/or construction (which there always is in South Florida). The Turnpike is an absolutely miserable experience going from Orlando to Miami.

So would I rather put more wear and tear on my car, pay for tolls (easily $10 each way, I think it's $15/each way if you go all the way to end of the Turnpike), possibly have someone wreck me (which happens very often on the Turnpike and in South Florida) and arrive tired and frazzled? Or would I rather get there in the largely the same time, if not quicker, are arrive relaxed and ready for whatever I'm doing down there?

And people like you always forget the car costs. You think about the Lyft/Uber costs but then don't take into account that if you drive, if you're staying almost anywhere on Miami Beach or in Downtown/Brickell, you'll be paying $40 or $50/night to park your car. Even if you aren't staying at a hotel that doesn't charge for parking (which is rare nowadays unless you are in a suburban/rural area), you'll still pay for parking at other locations.

Honestly yeah, I'll take Brightline almost anytime over driving down to South Florida. And look I'm not saying it applies to all situation. Yes if you're going to be driving all around South Florida or maybe down to the Florida Keys then yes you're going to probably need to drive. But if you're going to be on Miami Beach, going to an event or just down there in a relatively condensed area, to me Brightline is worth it, even if you do have a few Lyft/Uber rides. I'm not saying it's appropriate for all situations, but it can definitely be appropriate for a lot of people.

My friends used it for a cruise they took out of Fort Lauderdale and loved it. Again arrived refreshed and relaxed, not already tired and frazzled from dealing with traffic on the Turnpike and I-95. And the money they saved from not having to park at Port Everglades paid for their round trip on Brightline. It definitely makes it feasible to take cruises out of South Florida if they have different itineraries than Port Canaveral. I'll probably be taking a cruise out of South Florida in the next year or two and will definitely use it for that. I would also definitely use it if I'm going down there for an event or just staying on Miami Beach or Downtown/Brickell.

 

Fair enough and detailed answer.

It works for some in certain situations. Doesn’t seem like a family traveling for vacation in S florida would get near the benefit.

When I drive from Daytona to the keys it takes about 6 hours as you note that’s a trip where a car is needed.

I will say I have noticed over the last few years the turnpike in S Fla has been a crap show more often than not.

 

they have already announced new stations(by 2026) in Cocoa and Stewart. I wouldn't be surprised if Melbourne is in the planning stage as well.

 

From what I've read though not all trains are going to stop at those stations. Currently on an average weekday Brightline has about 16 trips from Orlando down to South Florida. My guess is out of 16 trips you'll have probably 3 or 4 of them make stops in Cocoa and Stuart.

I'm sure Stuart was essentially a compromise as I remember that area was the area most against Brightline going through their city and gave them the most push back.

My responses were just responding to those who said Brightline in Florida would fail. The South Florida part already has been highly successful and the Orlando to South Florida section has been good as well. I've been on Brightline twice now and both times the trains were busy so it is being used. The nice thing about Brightline compared to the airlines is truly the comfort and space level. Even if it's an extra 30 minutes or an hour I was truly surprised how much room you had. I blame a lot of that on the airlines who have conditioned us sadly to simply accept being cramed into planes like sardines.

The extra stops is the only concern. Brightline will succeed as long as it stays fast. But yeah if they add too many stops then it's no longer HSR and at that point is just commuter rail and it would fail. But again I'm sure they are aware of this as Brightline seems to be well run.

Again even with those extra stops it won't be on every trip. The same thing happens in South Florida. Some of the trips don't stop at Boca or Aventura. My guess is 3 or 4 out of the 15 or 16 daily trips will stop at Cocoa and Stuart and the rest will bypass as they do now.

Stuart better be careful. That part of the track between Stuart and Ft. Pierce is by far the slowest. They crawl through that area and over the bridges.

If Brightline can make enough money I could very much see them doing new tracks with no at grade crossings around I-95 from West Palm Beach to Orlando to bypass the slower sections and make the trip even faster.

The Orlando to Cocoa part again is nice as it's all elevated with no at grade crossings. I know the Orlando to Tampa line would be the same. Currently the Orlando to Cocoa part goes right alongside 528 and the Orlando to Tampa section will essentially go right along I-4. It is really how HSR needs to be done.