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June, July, & August 2024 CPI & PPI not what Fed Reserve Needs for rate policy change

Discussion in 'Too Hot for Swamp Gas' started by ETGator1, Jul 11, 2024.

  1. ETGator1

    ETGator1 GC Hall of Fame

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    LOL! When the Feds cut, it will be into bad news prior to the election.
     
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  2. ETGator1

    ETGator1 GC Hall of Fame

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    This article expounds pretty well on how home values are calculated as part of the CPI, but differently since 1983.

    Why the government took home prices out of its main inflation index (fullstackeconomics.com)

    So, in the 1970s, economists argued that it made more sense to think of homes as capital goods that “produce” housing services. It’s these housing services that actually get consumed. This is easy to see for renters, since the capital good—the home—is owned by the landlord. But economists argued the same principle could be applied to homeowners, who can be thought of as renting their homes from themselves.

    That’s the approach the BLS has taken since 1983. Instead of collecting data on what homeowners actually spend to buy and maintain their homes, the BLS estimates how much homeowners would have to pay to rent their homes from a hypothetical landlord. This “imputed rent” is used to estimate the inflation rate for owner-occupied housing.

    The BLS does ask homeowners to estimate the rental value of their own homes, but only to determine how much weight to give owner-occupied homes relative to other categories like milk or haircuts. Changes in these weights don’t have much impact on the calculated inflation rate.

    And the BLS doesn’t use this survey to compute the actual inflation rate for owner-occupied housing. Instead, the BLS looks at market data for rents paid for nearby properties with similar characteristics.

    Owner occupied homes are calculated into the CPI, at least insofar as how the home would rent out using comparable rentals.

    Bottom line housing which does include owner occupied properties do add to the CPI and the CPI will likely respond to changes in interest rates.

    Not wanting to be argumentative, but if the Feds cut into a rising housing market as it will be doing next week, housing rose .5% in August and is up over 5% annually, the risk for higher inflation will go up higher as more buyers with lower mortgage rates chase a still low inventory housing market. I'm sure there are locations where low inventory isn't the case, but nationally there is a housing shortage:

    The U.S. is now short 4.5 million homes as the housing deficit grows - Jun 18, 2024 (mediaroom.com)

    The growing housing shortage is the primary reason for the affordability crisis

    • From 2021 to 2022, the U.S. housing shortage grew to 4.5 million homes, up from 4.3 million.
    • In 2022, the number of U.S. families increased by 1.8 million, while only 1.4 million housing units were built.
    • Those who live in markets with stricter land-use regulations are less likely to be able to afford the mortgage payment on a typical home.
    SEATTLE, June 18, 2024 /PRNewswire/ -- Despite a pandemic construction boom, the U.S housing shortage grew to 4.5 million homes in 2022, up from 4.3 million the year before, according to a new analysis from Zillow®.1 This deepening housing deficit is the root cause of the housing affordability crisis.
     
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2024
  3. ETGator1

    ETGator1 GC Hall of Fame

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    You are likely telling more truth than fiction.
     
  4. demosthenes

    demosthenes Premium Member

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    Home building has slowed this year due to interest rates including a June spike in mortgage rates. My company is hoping lowered rates will increase sales and home building since it directly ties to our bottom line. For comparison, we saw -19% volume in YOY in August.
     
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  5. l_boy

    l_boy 5500

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    All due respect you are telling me things I already know.

    the key phrase of what you posted was this


    So BLS measures housing inflation based upon apartment rent inflation and single family home rental rates. The purchase price of a house has zero to do with it.

    The apartment rent inflation data is available as I showed you. As to rental homes, actually increasing interest rates can have to seemingly counterintuitive effect of increasing housing rents - to the extent mortgage rates impact rental rates, and lower rates lead to lower mortgage rates.

    The whole point is that the cpi inflation that you are seeing now has already happened months, maybe even years ago. Changing in interest rates may affect new rents, but those rents won’t flow through to cpi until 6 -12 months perhaps even longer. At this point we can predict what the cpi housing component will be over the next 6-12 months because the inflation has already happened. A quarter or half point fluctuation in interest rates will have virtually no impact on CPI shelter inflation for almost a year.
     
  6. philnotfil

    philnotfil GC Hall of Fame

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    I appreciate that you take the time to provide links to the sources you are using.
     
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  7. ETGator1

    ETGator1 GC Hall of Fame

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    Rents in the price range of homes will be reflected accordingly. Shelter has made new highs in the last year and, according to you, have not yet been accounted for in the CPI. For supply and demand reasons, shelter isn't going down.

    You can't just say take out shelter and everything is fine. Even using the 2.5% CPI All and taking out .5% for shelter inflation puts the CPI All at 2.0%. However, who gave you the right to discount shelter to get to a rate you want to have over the rate we do have? To top it off, the preferred CPI Core would be 2.7% if you backed out shelter.

    That the Fed under Powell has painted itself into a box for rate policy change doesn't mean they are making the right decision any more so than when they turned a blind eye delaying the fight to stop inflation. Time will tell if cutting rates starting in September 2024 was correct or not.
     
  8. citygator

    citygator VIP Member

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    Ruh roh…. Loose lips over in the fed….

     
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  9. l_boy

    l_boy 5500

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    Instead of trying to make this a fight I wish you’d just listen to what I say. I never said shelter hadn’t been accounted for. I am saying CPI lags the actual price inflation.

    here is the actual cpi excluding shelter. It has been around 1% for the last two years. We don’t need to make things up.

    Consumer Price Index for All Urban Consumers: All Items Less Shelter in U.S. City Average


    CPI including shelter is the correct way to measure the actual impact on consumers. However making policy on cPI including shelter in terms of interest rates is problematic in that actual housing (rents) inflation ended two years ago.
     
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  10. ETGator1

    ETGator1 GC Hall of Fame

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    This is all you needed to say to satisfy me:

    "CPI including shelter is the correct way to measure the actual impact on consumers."

    Consumers need relief from the Biden/Harris inflation. Their inflation is like a relative coming for a visit and then deciding to stay for over 3 1/2 years. Every day the impact is felt by consumers. What was supposed to be transitory was never that.

    I asked my wife about the 1% over 2 years in her shopping experiences. She just laughed and said must be Common Core Math as there is no way that has been her experience.

    Using the Fed less shelter chart you provided to compare Biden/Harris with Trump, Biden/Harris has 19% inflation to date while Trump had 5% which included the first year of the pandemic.

    The answer to Kamala Harris' question from the debate that she refused to answer and was not required to answer by the ABC mods is Americans are worse off under Biden/Harris.

    Not wanting to argue or fight, peace and moving on for now.
     
  11. coleg

    coleg GC Hall of Fame

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    Still awaiting a cogent explanation that Global inflation is the fault of the WH. Please note the much higher rates of inflation in the majority of developed countries in your explanation... or maybe you just conveniently made it up.
     
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  12. ETGator1

    ETGator1 GC Hall of Fame

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    I never commented on the WH causing worldwide inflation. I'm not a globalist. Socialist Canada and Socialist Europe is not anything I want the US emulating.

    Make America Great Again means my greatest and highest concern rests with what we do in the US.

    Honestly, I don't know why I'm bothering to tell you this again. It just bounces off of your tinfoil hat.
     
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  13. coleg

    coleg GC Hall of Fame

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    Since poster cannot refute Global inflation, and cannot refute that The USA is part of the world economy, then the quote : "Consumers need relief from the Biden/Harris inflation. Their inflation is like a relative coming for a visit and then deciding to stay for over 3 1/2 years. Every day the impact is felt by consumers. What was supposed to be transitory was never that." is fallacious as to wrongful attribution as I pointed out. In fact the USA suffers less inflation than other similarly developed countries. This does not fit the poster's inane anecdotal non-factual narrative and is drowned out by his cognitive dissonance. Be better.
     
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  14. ETGator1

    ETGator1 GC Hall of Fame

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    Today is the day for the first Fed rate cut. We are getting ready to experience Fed screw up #2 during the Biden/Harris administration tenure.

    The unemployment rate went down from 4.3% to 4.2%, well within the full employment range of acceptable rates.

    Core CPI is 3.2%, and the CPI All is elevated at 2.5% with the acknowledgement that shelter must be included in both numbers.

    The PPI was up .2% month over month.

    The PCE Core is 2.6% for a third consecutive month and the PCE All is 2.5%.

    Manufacturing is up.

    Consumer spending is up.

    Bottom line, if in the position to do so, I'd advise the Feds to hold off. Treasuries have come down 1/2 point and mortgage rates are down too. Maybe the rates would go back up if the Feds continued to hold the Fed rate steady, but that isn't a given.

    Tick tock, tick tock, tick tock, we'll know the cut and how much sometime in the early afternoon.
     
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  15. BigCypressGator1981

    BigCypressGator1981 GC Hall of Fame

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    Half point cut
     
  16. dangolegators

    dangolegators GC Hall of Fame

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    Just for fun, could someone collect the dozens of time etgator1 said there would be no rate cuts this year? I'd do it my self but I have a life to live.
     
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  17. NavyGator93

    NavyGator93 GC Hall of Fame

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    Man, I'm retired and an empty nester but even I don't have time to put together a list of all ET's mistakes.
     
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  18. gator_jo

    gator_jo All American

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    We know you're busy, so you please collect all of the times ET moaned about Trump calling for lower or even negative rates when unemployment was lower than this.

    Shouldn't take long.
     
  19. coleg

    coleg GC Hall of Fame

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    I'm missing a crow ..... has anyone seen a crow? Wonder what could have happened to that crow?
     
  20. citygator

    citygator VIP Member

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    This thread is a dry run for election night.

    [​IMG]
     
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