::: Trump v. Harris Debate Thread, Tue. at 9pm on ABC

My hometown … Westonzuela, based on the large percentage of Venezuelans that moved here.

 

So sadly clueless.

 

Trump is a martyr-like figure only to members of the Cult of the Donald who will be voting for him under virtually any circumstances. Playing the martyr was undoubtedly a major factor in Trump's winning the Republican nomination. As far as swing voters are concerned Trump's legal problems are much more of a negative than a positive.

 

Yeah & drinkers don't pay alcohol taxes, drivers don't pay gas taxes & so on. Just shamefully stupid.



In economics, tax incidence is the way a tax burden is divided between buyers and sellers, or other groups in the economy. It's a measure of who ultimately pays the tax, either directly or indirectly.

Here are some key points about tax incidence:

• Price elasticity
  The relative price elasticity of supply and demand determines tax incidence. When supply is more elastic than demand, buyers bear most of the tax burden. When demand is more elastic than supply, producers bear most of the cost.
  
  
• Tax burden
  The tax burden is the difference between real incomes or utilities before and after the tax is imposed. It also takes into account how the tax causes prices to change.
  
  
• Elastic demand
  Individuals with relatively elastic demand tend to escape the burden of the tax.
  
  
• Tax revenue
  Tax revenue is larger when demand and supply are more inelastic.

 

https://www.wsj.com/articles/tariffs-and-the-common-man-protectionism-09b30582

Or consider steel jobs. Employment in iron and steel mills and ferroalloy manufacturing, compared with when Mr. Trump announced his metal tariffs in March 2018, is up 800 souls, or 1%. Yet in the same period, employment in steel-product manufacturing from purchased steel fell by 1,600 workers, or 2.8%.

This reveals what tariffs often do in real life, which is to rob some anonymous Peter to pay some politically powerful Paul. In their earnings calls after nearly a year of Mr. Trump’s metal tariffs, steel makers bragged about record profits, while Whirlpool, Caterpillar and others lamented new costs. Ford pegged its annual hit at $750 million, and the profit-sharing checks sent to its factory workers “would be 10 percent higher were it not for tariffs,” the Detroit Free Press reported.

The public also foots the bill. “U.S. tariffs continue to be almost entirely borne by U.S. firms and consumers,” said a 2020 analysis by economists at the New York Fed, Princeton and Columbia. A study by the Peterson Institute for International Economics found that each job created or saved by Mr. Trump’s steel tariffs cost $900,000. His tax of up to 50% on imported washing machines fared little better, according to a 2019 estimate, supporting 1,800 jobs at a cost of more than $800,000 each.

That last paper is worth a read in particular because it shows how tariffs distort a market. After Mr. Trump’s import tax was imposed, prices on washers went up 11.5%, or about $86, and “all major brands increased prices,” with “no clear distinction between domestic and foreign brands.”

 

Not how tariffs work.

When the U.S. imposes tariffs on imports, U.S. businesses directly pay import taxes to the U.S. government on their purchases from abroad. The economic burden of the tariffs, however, could fall on others besides the U.S. business directly paying the tax, including foreign businesses selling goods to U.S. businesses (if foreigners lower their prices to absorb some of the tariffs), or U.S. consumers ultimately purchasing the goods (if U.S. businesses raise their prices to pass on the tariffs).
​

Foreign governments do not pay tariffs. And the cost of the tariff always causes prices to go up. Take laundry appliances for example. The chart speaks for itself. The drop in prices occurred around Dec/Jan, when stores were likely having huge sales to move product to get ready for new inventory. But even with this, prices were higher on the good with tariffs.

 

Let's not forget

 

It's hard to imagine simultaneously believing that increases in min wage increase prices, but increases in tariffs create pure gravy.

 

Excellent post, the political reality in contrast to the economic reality is that a voters predisposed to vote for Trump are economically ignorant and will believe whatever their Dear Leader tells them. By the way and although imports are a factor, the more significant reason for the loss of jobs in steel production over the last several decades is technology. It takes considerably fewer workers to produce a ton of steel today than it did in 1970.
The main reason for the loss of US steel jobs is productivity and technology not imports and they're not coming back

 

Jokeachobee is like the Michael Jordan of being wrong. It’s just impressive at this point.

 

If so bad, why didn't the BA get rid of them?

 

The money from tariffs does go to the US Treasury . . . from US consumers and producers who actually pay them. They're not paid by the Chinese.

 

It was three against one! Totally unfair to Trump! He shouldn't agree to anymore debates except maybe on Fox.

***

It was three against one! Totally unfair to Trump, but he held serve!

***

It was three against one! Totally unfair to Trump, but he held serve and he showed what a strong and impressive debater he is!

***

It was three against one, so Harris looked weak because the MSM had to cover for her!

***

It was three against one, but the MSM fell into his trap and kept the focus on him and made him a martyr!

***

Trump did his usual 4D chess and subliminally won, stretching his lead in the polls!

***

But it was totally unfair and he shouldn't do another debate except maybe on Fox.

 

You open yourself up to being "soft on China" because Americans have a hard on for a new Cold War right now, and you gotta think about reelection. US Steel or whatever going under is never going to be a good look politically. Same reason why they are blocking their sale to the Japanese. There is no economic sensibility about it, its pure optics.

 

I have imported goods for 30 years. The next tariff China pays will be the first. You have no idea how a tariff works. To get my goods out of customs I have to pay a freight forwarder their fees plus the tariff. So I pay a US freight company that pays the US Govt.

 

MAGA: The Biden/Harris economic policies are horrible, driving inflation up, and they're intentionally trying to ruin our country!

Also MAGA: Those Trump tariffs must be good because Biden kept them!

 

why would a leftist get rid of leftist policy???

 

I’d really like to see a trump supporter try to answer this.

 

Average inflation rate was 35% higher under Trump than under Obama. We just didn't feel it much because it was still under 2% under Trump. But make no mistake, inflation was higher under Trump, and that was with the last year being mostly under lockdown, which caused a massive drop in demand for things like oil, travel, etc., which caused prices to remain low.

Trump 2.0 would likely cause a higher spike in inflation. He's not just proposing tariffs on certain goods, but all goods. In addition, the mass deportation would cause mass labor shortages, especially on things like food and construction, driving prices up there. Last, Trump's first term had some adults in the room with him to hold him back. They are all gone (and almost all voting Harris), and Trump will be without the guardrails this time.