Hamas Murdered 6 Hostages in Rafah as IDF Approached

That poster won't admit they were wrong. Just laugh at them and move on.

 

And you haven't provided a single argument showing why I'm wrong. Just attacked me and claimed victory. And again, the majority of Israelis now agree with me.

Anger at Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu following the killings of the six Israeli hostages whose bodies were found over the weekend in a tunnel in Gaza was still mounting Wednesday as bloodshed in the Palestinian territory continued. The fury at Israel's long-time leader manifested in a third consecutive night of mass protests, with tens of thousands of increasingly desperate Israelis demanding that Netanyahu agree to a cease-fire deal with Hamas to bring the remaining 101 captives back home. About 75 of the hostages are believed to still be alive.

"The man is a liar, a compulsive liar," protester Yair Katz fumed to CBS News on Tuesday night. "He's a crook and a liar, and he's a criminal."
​

So, explain to me why I'm wrong. Why can Israeli win the war against the terrorist today when over the past 60 years, they have failed to do so? And if Israeli can't defeat Hamas with a military victory, what does Israel have to gain by continued hostilities?

Oh, and "you can't fix stupid," is not a satisfactory answer.

 

I am going to point out that this is a very unreliable narrative that you were provided. First, the Labor Party is not "hyper-liberal." In fact, the "Labor Party" doesn't even exist anymore. It was discontinued a couple of months ago and merged into a separate party called "The Democrats." This party is generally viewed as a center-left party in their system, but is not the main opposition party (nor would it be able to mobilize hundreds of thousands of Israelis quickly in support of an issue that they are claiming is unpopular). Clearly, a defunct party is not the sponsor of the mass protests.

Beyond that, in terms of public support, there is polling on this:

https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveb...lis-back-proposed-hostage-for-ceasefire-deal/

That is a majority. 60% of Israelis back a hostages-for-ceasefire deal.

In terms of Netanyahu's support, there is polling on that as well from the same poll. It is not as those folks told you.

I'd suggest that you were provided pretty much the party line from the Netanyahu camp.

 

Let’s say you’re correct, and it’s impossible to secure that knock-out victory. The flip side is that if Israel doesn’t show absolute strength and resolve, they run the risk of making themselves appear weak and vulnerable. And vulnerability in that area of the world is a death sentence.

 

Both of these guys are highly educated and trained. When we spoke of Netanyahu, the comments were close to mine — we like him when he was younger, we stopped liking him when he turned hard right (in terms of more authoritarian), but he is the best person to be in office at this time. In other words, neither were Netanyahu apologists.

 

Israel hasn't died yet. Several wars with countries in the early days, and battles against the PLO and now Hamas for the better part of 60 years. And 11 months of continued bombing of Hamas. When is it enough? When are the returns diminishing?

The majority of Israelis have already reached the point where the they realize there is nothing left to be gained by continued hostilities. The two Israelis you spoke to are now part of the minority who believe otherwise. But as the war lingers on, and nothing of substance changes, more and more Israelis are going to want their reservist family and the hostages back home.

60 years of the same fight and neither side has scored a knockout blow. Maybe, one day, they will wake up and realize the futility of the fight?

 

I want peace as much as you. I want the safety and security of the State of Israel. All we need is the other side to agree to those 2 basic, fundamental points, and then there may be productive talks to reach a lasting resolution.

 

Strange then that they would so inaccurately relay facts in support of him (especially given that it is not due to a lack of knowledge, as you pointed out). Basically, if you interviewed Netanyahu, that is almost exactly what he would say (setting aside that some of that is obviously false). And much of it is factually untrue.

 

I guess you know better than two Israelies in what Israelies do, think and say. I stand corrected.

 

Why do you think that they understand the opinions of all Israelis better than opinion polls of all Israelis? If I asked a couple of people in Park Slope or a couple of people in some small, majority white town in Mississippi, do you think that I would get an accurate picture of what most Americans think above an opinion poll of the entire country?

 

I'll quote Golda Meir again. "There will be peace when the Palestinians love their children more then they hate Israeli children." We're not there yet. And what do you think the continued bombing of Hamas will do to how the Palestinians feel about the Israelis in the future? For the better part of 60 years, it's been wash, rinse, repeat.

 

I know!!! But what is Israel todo when the other side doesn’t want peace???

Oh, not that it matters, but my Israeli colleagues I was with last week both have children in the military, and so they certainly aren’t war mongers, either. They have their own real blood at risk.

 

Because they live there, you know … with other Israelis. The country has a fairly dense population. And so I’m pretty sure they have a good feel, perhaps a better feel, for how their countrymen feel than us keyboard cowboys over on Gator Country.

 

Best you can do is play defense and promote peace. If you can convince the Palestinian civilians that peace will lead to prosperity, and attacks will lead to the conditions that exist today, then there is a chance for peace, however remote. Keep attacking and the cycle continues.

 

It’s a plan, at least. I don’t think it would work, and with a Gaza we know it hasn’t worked. But it’s a hope and a plan, made with good intentions. Trust me, I’m not “yelling” or “insulting” the idea, I just don’t think sitting back, taking hit after hit in a defensive posture, is feasible, workable, or productive.

 

Okay, so if I have a friend in Israel telling me the very opposite (and I do- in fact, it is one of those people that you tried to dismiss on the streets in Tel Aviv), you will just believe me and him, since it is a dense country and he lives there?

I am basing my views of Israeli opinions not on my friend, nor on my personal feelings, but the data. It is interesting that you are trying to shift away from the data to my personal opinions, as if they are one and the same. Perhaps you could have just made a comment about me posting from a basement and gone full Napier!

 

Yes, to be honest, it would sound more like you’ve talked to actual people as opposed to relying upon a press that is uniquely unreliable when it comes to things Israel. And yes,your comments run against the grain of two separate people-one from Tel Aviv and another from Jerusalem,each of whom literally laughed at the suggestion that “most Israelis” want a cease fire, as is, with no further gains in the War, with no release of the hostages, and certainly no bargained-for release of hostages in exchange of hundreds of prisoners.

My colleagues, both whose have lots of family (and children) serving in the military, do not appear to be out of the ordinary Israelis. But, sure, they could be, and maybe they fooled me. But, having worked with them for awhile, I take them at their word.

That’s not to say I don’t believe your friend. In a democracy, like Israel, people are entitled to their divergent views and disagreements. Those very discussions over disagreements are what usually makes us better and forms better solutions. That is the hope of all of us, I presume.

(I laughed at your post based on your last sentence, not at your argument).

 

The post I made was based on Israeli polling sponsored by...a Pro-Israeli Group...as reported by a right leaning press outlet from Israel.

Speaking to a couple of people is not a good measure, which is why I didn't open with "I know somebody there too!" This is really an issue of in-groups/out-groups. People often assume out-groups (such as people from another country) are more heterogeneous, and, as such, a couple of people can speak for them all accurately. Second, people tend to assume that others hold their opinion within an in-group as well, even when that isn't accurate. Think about the liberals who couldn't believe Trump won because nobody they knew would admit to voting for him or the Republicans that couldn't believe Biden won because nobody they knew would admit to voting for him. This combination can lead to dramatically skewed perspectives.

That is why it is important to seek out data. That is why I went to the polling data when commenting on what Israelis think rather than just assuming that my friend spoke for everybody in the country.

Finally, I will say this: months ago, I stated that one of the problems is that there is still no picture of what an end game of this all looks like. I believe that you told me such a picture would develop. It still hasn't. I suspect that is why you are seeing less support for the continuation of the war at this stage (although I can't say that for certain as the reason). Most Israelis supported the war due to October 7. But now, look further into that poll. Nobody seems to have developed any sort of a consensus about "Now what?" now that a ton of Gaza has been destroyed. Most Israelis don't seem to want the Israeli Army to essentially occupy Gaza permanently. But there also seems to be no consensus on how they don't at this point without putting Hamas back in charge (which is, obviously, unpopular). They don't want the PA put in charge. They could maybe live with a foreign country, but I doubt Egypt or Saudi Arabia is exactly looking forward to doing that (or would agree to it).

All of this suggests to me that the last few months of this war and likely the next few at least as well, are less about getting to any sort of specific end point and more about keeping the government in place and Netanyahu out of a court. To me, that realization is pretty awful when juxtaposed against the families who just had their innocent family members killed so that the war could continue to...something.

 

He doesn’t have a friend from Israel. He’s just making that up.