We all pay the price for protectionism

Yes I would say capitalism and socialism are in conflict with each other. But the ultimate goal of socialism is to not have a capitalistic country anywhere. Marxism is a revolutionary and internationalistic idea. But obviously the problems of nationalism create a number of contradictions in the context of a capitalist world system, particularly one that is dominated by explicitly anti-communist ideology. The Soviet Union had to come up with the idea of "socialism in one country" when the Bolsheviks were defeated militarily in Poland, and revolutions failed in Germany and other places. China has created a sort of state managed capital "work around." North Korea has turned to near isolation and self-sufficiency, etc.

 

Im dumbfounded you actually think there is some form of real socialism that actually works.

 

how do good trade agreements get the EU to produce something cheaper than countries with no labor laws or environmental regulations that also subsidizes industries? Reality is that countries willing to practically enslave their people and pollute their environment can drive any company in countries that do have labor laws and environmental regulations out of business if the market isn't controlled to prevent it.

 

do those companies get to operate as freely there as they do here? How much intellectual property was sacrificed for them to be able to operate there?

 

I’m dumbfounded people can post about all the problems they see everywhere and think capitalism works. We are currently on a thread where a lot of people are arguing we have to abandon capitalist principles to beat a communist country economically after all.

 

So the answer for you is - force all citizens/workers to subside on gov't cheese, substandard housing conditions, no freedom of speech, steal intellectual property, etc. so that the USA/West (including Japan, Taiwan) can then make products of poor quality to sell at cheaper prices on the open international market?

No one is arguing that capitalism is perfect - it can't be by its own nature (or "nature" generally) of being a competitive market with winners and losers. Sadly for socialists/communists, the imperfect capitalist model has proven to be much more beneficial to the people overall (without even taking the votes of the 100+ million literally killed under socialist/communist regimes). It's frustrating that these points need to be repeated - ever. Dream all you want about this utopia promised in Das Kapital and Mein Kampf, but it is only a pathway to ruin and devastation. Warts and all, I'll gladly take a capitalistic system lead by Dems or Reps - assuming the Dems are not successful to trick enough people to follow the socialist/communist model, which seems unlikely b/c Dems profit from capitalism just as much even though they pretend not to.

 

Government cheese? Did you step out of a 70s sitcom?

 

Did you step out of your diapers?

 

If you remember government cheese you are old enough to be wearing the adult kind

 

Further proof you are still in the infant kind. I'm admittedly middle aged. I'm also satisfied that I "remember" historical references/sayings and not fluent in current lingo. LOL

 

Well, this thread has certainly gone from gouda to grating! What started as a sharp discussion on the dangers of protectionism has now curdled into an age-old debate about cheese and diapers. Let's not let our discussion get shredded by pettiness. How about we wheel this conversation back on track and focus on the big cheese: economic policy? After all, there's a lot at stake here, and it’s nacho average debate.

Too much?

 

Give me an example of where socialism has worked.

 

I don't even know what this means? Like what's an example of capitalism "working" ... a country not in full on collapse? Who won the Cold War arms race? Like what's the metric here? The USA certainly has more wealth, resources and economic dominance than Cuba ever will but Cuba houses everyone and gives them healthcare (even without even being allowed to fully participate in the world economy by sanction), which we don't do here. So what's the measure of success or failure? Cuba is a small place with limited resources, its not going to become a super power, ever. It wont become a wealthy or powerful country if it becomes fully capitalist tomorrow. There are also plenty of examples of socialist and social democratic parties in the West successfully governing and implementing popular policy, so again, what does "working" mean?

 

Since its the topic of the thread, does the country we are seemingly very afraid of right now count as socialism "working?"

 

You keep touting socialism. You are obviously a very intelligent guy but the fetish for socialism is comical.

The answer you can come up with is Cuba. Does anyone aspire to anything close to what Cuba has?

European and Bernie Sanders style democratic socialism really isn’t socialism. They generally call for a heavy dose of redistribution but not government taking over operationally large parts of the economy.

Of course capitalism isn’t perfect but there are many examples of its successes. There are no examples of socialism success that I am aware of.

 

Cheese Caves: America's 1.2 Billion Pounds of Hidden Cheese (sfhscollegeprep.org)
The United States government owns 1.4 billion pounds of cheese. Now, they don’t store this in warehouses or storage facilities. They keep this cheese hundreds of feet below ground in converted limestone mines in Missouri. The “cheese caves” are kept at a perfect 36 degrees Fahrenheit and are home to the massive stockpiles of government=owned cheese.
The United States’ cheese hoard began in the 1970s during a national dairy shortage. At this time, President Jimmy Carter decided to pour money into the dairy industry so that production could increase and so that the 30% inflation on dairy products could go down. The government provided over 2 billion dollars to the dairy industry, but this primed them for overproduction. Whatever cheese was not sold on the market would therefore be purchased by the government to keep prices low. By 1980, the United States government had bought over 500 million pounds of cheese.

The first solution for this excess of cheese was to package it into cheese blocks for distribution. These cheese blocks were called “government cheese,” and the Reagan Administration distributed 60 million five-pound blocks of cheese for pickup by people at food banks and community centers. This was a temporary solution, but it did not last.

By 2019, the government found itself storing cheese blocks in numbers greater than ever seen before. The United States now possessed 1.4 billion pounds of cheese, and they needed a place to store it. They decided on converting limestone mines in Missouri to store the cheese. However interesting this is to us, it actually reveals a larger problem in the United States

 

You keep moving the goal posts. First you are like when has socialism 'worked' ... you cant say what that means. Then you say something about "asprining to be Cuba" which I didnt say anything about. I doubt anyone aspires to be a small country with limited resources that has been under blockade for 60 odd years. I dont even think Cuba aspires to be that. Then you say people that actually call themselves socialists arent real socialists, so that doesnt count. Venezuala's economy is still largely privatized too, so I guess that's not real socialism. Sorry but your question is stupid. Now its changed from "working" or "not working" to "sucesses" ... every system has had successes and failures lol. I mean, fuedalism built some really cool castles and churches.

 

You’ve engaged in a lot of deflection. But you can’t seem to actually come up with an example where Socialism works, is successful, however you want to define it.

Now if you are saying capitalism with a redistributionist wrapper can work, yes it can.