More than 90 Palestinians killed in Israeli strike on school and mosque sheltering displaced people,

by your logic our going to war against Japan was disproportionate compared to Pearl Harbor, and everything we did regarding terrorism due to 9/11 or other things was disproportionate.

The end point of your logic is that no war or military action is justified if it kills more non combatants than combatants. I suspect that would cover every war in history.

 

Who on this board has sided with Hamas?
Literally no one.

 

Dropping 2 nukes on them when the war was won was disproportionate and one of the biggest crimes against humanity ever, this seems like a bad example and a self-own. Or perhaps it speaks to the mentality of Americans.

 

Big reach. Comparison is invalid for innumerable reasons.

First and foremost, our killing Japanese civilians most likely precluded a greater amount of deaths in an invasion.

With Israel, obviously most likely not the case; prior to 10/7 Israel had suffered approximately 2,000 deaths due to terrorism over the course of its entire existence. Add in 10/7 and we're over, but near 3,000.

Does preventing numbers like that justify killing likely a minimum of 30,000 civilians over 12 months, displacing possibly 2 million, and starving possibly as many?

Obviously not. The reaction is absurd. Never mind that it will most likely achieve no positive outcome. I think you must realize this by now.




Oh, and I wasn't alive during the final days of WW2. Anything we may or may not have done wrong isn't my fault. So no false comparisons to something YOU SUPPORT as it is HAPPENING.

 

Not really. But you might want to say "any action that kills 3-6 times as many civilians as combatants" is not justified.

Because that more accurately describes what is happening in Gaza.

Now did the USA do that recently? I don't think so. And there's no way in hell I supported invading Iraq. So the "two wrongs make a right" stretch isn't applicable.

 

Except for those ones where the armies line up across from each other and shoot into the line with muskets. Napolean style.

 

There was an actual declaration of war against Japan in WWII. Japan was also a country willing and able to surrender when they knew they were defeated. The Japanese were not a terrorist organization. Hamas is. And Hamas adds to its numbers from the civilian population among the Palestinians. Major differences.

With that said, the bombs dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki were strikes against humanity. But they were also a necessary evil, in my opinion. Needed to happen so we can collectively come together and say never again when it comes to using nuclear arms against humans.

 

If you find all this to be true, how in the world were you going to vote for Biden?

 

I’m curious … has Hamas returned the hostages? Has Hamas stopped shelling Israel? Has Hamas leadership stopped planning its next attack on Israeli innocents? And while on that subject, what is Hamas doing to isolate its leadership—known targets—from the civilians? When will Hamas be held accountable for conducting its War while commingling, and hiding behind, its civilians?

 

Talk about morally compromised! If a state can say mass murder is a 'necessary evil' to achieve its military objectives, what cant be excused?

 

This is a very one sided perspective. To sit 80 years later and speculate a countries response during a world war is excessive is a pretty narrow view.

Also I think the firebombing that took place probably killed more than the nukes.

 

These artificial and arbitrary constraints on noncombatant deaths are just that…artificial and arbitrary, and not supported by the the history of war.

 

Israel is taking the lesson America learned in WWII, you can commit unspeakable war crimes and mass murder as long as you win, and then eventually enough time will pass it becomes an online argument.

 

from other threads I’ve seen 3x is not unusual at all. I’ve seen no evidence that it is anywhere near 6x.

why do you put more faith in Hamas numbers than IDF numbers?

 

war is hell

 

What would you know about it?

 

I would say dropping nukes on Japanese civilians were an exception to a rule. You don't build new weapons without using them. Otherwise, what's the point? And if we didn't drop the two in Japan, someone else drops them on a different target.

But once the nukes were dropped, and the destruction realized, it was hopefully enough of a wakeup call to prevent nukes from ever being used again. At least that's the hope.

And the nukes did have the effect the US was hoping for. They ended the war without having to invade Japan and likely end the same, if not more lives on the Japanese end, while killing many more Allies. There is certainly an argument for the use the bombs in WWII.

With respect to the current conflict in Israel/Palestine, what's the difference between this war and the dozens of wars that have come before? The answer is nothing. It's wash, rinse, repeat. Israel isn't going away, and neither is Hamas. They may not be Hamas, but before them, it was the PLO. Same people, different name. And the beat goes on.

 

i don't put faith in the "10,000 Hamas fighters killed" number, tbh.

It may be another "unprovable", but I'd be pretty sure Netanyahu counts plenty of administrative types in Gaza as "Hamas fighters." Wrt to these numbers, he's probably no more credible than, well, anyone.

This is all semantic though. You apparently think killing at least 30,000 civilians in Gaza, while displacing and potentially starving up to 2 million, was the right course of action.

I find that insane, but....you're entitled to your opinion obviously.

 

Really?

Far lesser of two evils wrt Gaza. Then there's obviously everything else.

Plus, look : Gaza and the Palestinian struggle is bigger than any of us. Certainly me. I'll try to think and vote the right way, but.....

.......we're living in a moral cesspool. Roughly half of American voters are willing to vote for an obvious traitor rapist felon, and they'll find the most laughable ways to justify it.

Many supporters of Israel seem like they'd be willing to mow down a row of Palestinian infants if they thought a Hamas member was behind them. ("Ummm, it's not that many infants. In many wars more infants are killed than in this. Carry on, Israel, your cause is just!")

We do have to realize that this place is mostly for debate and to learn. Not likely I'll be changing minds here....so why should I worry either?

 

Fair enough. I just think we often oversimplify very complex situations.

And none of us really know and true numbers

I am just speaking more from a philosophical position that if terrorists are hiding behind their innocents while in turn attempting kill your innocents, one side is left with the very unenviable position of kill their innocents or let them kill ours.

I get that that in itself may be an oversimplification, but I hope it makes sense.