What is the point of having liberal values if we need to allow a genocide to preserve them? Liberalism is full of contradictions that way, that's why its weak in the face of fascism. I really take issue with liberals who cant see Israel for what it is at present, the blueprint for our future if our own right-wing nationalist gain enough power. The amount of anti-Muslim bigotry on this forum really disgusts me sometimes.
How is possible to be Reform Zionism Good for Israel / MAGA Bad for America , unless your idea is that "well I dont have to live under Israeli fascism." If its not that, whats the plan for resurrecting Liberal/Labor Zionism out of the dustbin of history?
What about Liberals who can't see Hamas and 50+ years of Oct. 7 type of crap as a clear trend? It's a long story of opportunity destroyed by these constant attempts to find the LCD of violent actions. There was a time when the majority in Israel were very anti-settlement but the PLO or whoever claimed to represent them responded with atrocity after atrocity and allowed the hardliners to kill (quite literally) that wing. And this is the story over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over again. I was fully on board with BDS and then this crap. I'm done with all of them. Israel/Palestine is like the Sid and Nancy of political disputes. Which drug-addled psychopath do you side with? I say neither. Further, we get only 10% of our oil from the entire region now. Time to say good riddance and focus our efforts on more crucial regions like East Asia, Europe and our own backyard.
I dont really agree with your interpretation, but as an American, the least we can ask is that we dont align with any side of this conflict for our own wellbeing.
You're my age or older. We've seen this story play out our entire lives. We've also seen similar stories play out a lot better with a non-violent approach. BDS was working and clearly could work far more effectively than Oct. 7. I can't invest myself in this anymore. I just can't. It reminds me of drug-addicted or alcoholic friends who you just have to walk away from for your own sanity. Two bad actors acting badly. What's a sane person to do.
Statements like these are meaningless when given after the fact. Everyone in DC knew this was going to happen and did nothing to prevent it. The national guard should have been out there cracking heads and shooting with rubber bullets. Peaceful protests are fine, destroying property should get your skull cracked. And before someone posts another Jan 6th pic, those people should have been shot as soon as they engaged and attacked the capital police.
What is your basis for saying "BDS was working?" It was non-mainstream idea that I'm not sure made much of an impact outside college campuses, even if for some reason your state didnt make it essentially illegal (like Florida). BDS is probably more viable since Oct 7, and some of the protests succeeded in institutions making divestment pledges, which they barely considered before. Israel is more isolated now than it was before October 7th.
I forget if it was Al Jazeera or Frontline, but there was an excellent documentary on the Mossad/AIPAC response to it. Basically, the former was working with the latter to engage in full-on harassments campaigns against anyone in America who supported it, even going so far as to label them as anti-sematic. Total BS, of course, as this is no different than the campaigns for South Africa, but WOW on the reaction. That, right there, told you that they feared this far more than terrorist attacks, which IMO some of the more hardline in Israel actually welcome. That was the sign to keep pushing, not give up and let the creeps in Hamas lead the charge.
We only have so many allies in the world…especially this region. I don’t always like it, but we’d be fools to let them go.
In my opinion, TPTB wanted j6 to go sideways, just look at the milage that's been had from it. Just on here you've got a bunch of people who interject that into most every thread without fail.
Obviously we won't "let them go". Too many defense and tech connections and relationships there. But what we can do is send a strong message to GET THIS RESOLVED so they can move forward with the Saudis and provide for their own security. We'll still be there if there is a major disaster, but there is no reason a collaboration between Israel and the Gulf States can't provide plenty of deterrent against Iran. Again, we have no real reason to be in the region other than to provide for the interests of our friends (Europe and East Asia) at this point. If there's any major stoppage of oil flows from the ME, it's China who takes the major hit. . . . along with those friends.
My answer: if I understand the demographics correctly 1/2 of the citizens are secular. The other half are zionists with a religous lunatic bent. The other side is 99% lunatic. I hope this answers your question.
Some of your points I agree with, but I think until we see long-term containment of Iran with staying power in the region, I don't think we can pull out of the Middle East. The Abraham Accords were one small step in that direction, but obviously, depending on which administration is in power in Washington, containment of Iran is going to increase or decrease in difficulty. Iran is one of the few exceptions where I would support regime change, but I think the Israelis and Saudis have to lead that charge. We can provide backup, as well as policy out of Washington which punishes the Iranian economy to the furthest extent possible. Iran is the big destabilizer in the region. Rid the region of the Iranian regime and their proxies and the odds of successful long-term two state solution between Israel and Palestine go up by like 500%.
