People read horror stories about college debt and project that out to the masses. It's unfortunate that folks have been taken by high tuition schools & predatory loan sharks, but I don't think that's the norm. It's increasingly important to shop carefully for an education. If you're anything like me, we were lucky; just head out to the flagship school (which fortunately had low tuition) and life is simple. But go to a private or out of state school and the COA is triple. As I mentioned in another post, the market correction is in effect. Lib Arts programs are the first to be cut from universities, which are almost universally facing major financial issues, btw. Fewer students are choosing the degrees folks on here love to bitch about and w/o enrollment, those programs are getting flushed. The unfortunate part is when good programs like music get eliminated. I can name two institutions in MN that have eliminated their music depts in the last couple years.
Bachelor's degrees often pay for themselves. Even liberal arts degrees. The person with a college degree makes, in average, $1.2 million more than those who just graduate high school. This figure includes both the engineer plus the two Smith graduates aforementioned. I have a History degree. Turned that into a very good career in Marketing. I started doing Market Research, and my career took off from there. My History degree also helped me be a better copywriter. With that said, the cost of education is too high. But what can we do about it? Bloated costs rarely come down unless they pop. And that's been happening with programs closing, and complete schools closing.
Sorry if I misinterpreted your previous post. To your last point, yes, colleges are complicit (some more than others). As lawyer pointed out, though, state subsidies for higher ed have taken a nosedive in recent decades.
No worries,and fair enough… But the other point I was making was on drop outs. Even big state schools, almost a third of UK kids don’t graduate. Same with Tennessee as 2 examples, and the national 6 year graduation average is something like 42 percent. Schools like UF are the big exception. I can just imagine how many families are disillusioned after dropping big money to not even finish.
I agree with you in theory, and I think it is good for all to have a well rounded liberal arts education (evidence the voting habits of college educated people vs non college educated), but the problem is it is coming at a very high financial cost. Somebody has to bear that cost - and accumulating govt guaranteed loans which many are unable to pay back has its own problems. Colleges have tried to become all things to all people. Every degree of study imaginable. Expanded administrative staffs to host all kinds of needs and initiatives. High cost facilities to lure student loan supported kids in the door. All of this while the states provide less and less a share of the funding. I do think the current political environment at colleges has made the situation worse. Nation wide protests supporting terrorists and antagonizing Jewish students, on top of years of political correctness, identity politics etc. There is no doubt that some of that has been exaggerated but it has stained the reputation nonetheless.
That remains to be seen. I think it will fizzle out until the next protest issue. How do you think the ill perception of universities plays out for prospective students? Dad: "You're not going to that damn libbie / anti-semitic college!" Kid: "But all my friends are going to college and I really want to!" Dad: "Well, ok then."
Just because someone has a degree from a liberal arts school doesn’t them any smarter. I know a lot of people without a college degree that are smarter than most with a degree. 99% of the knowledge I use as an attorney, businessman and investor was not taught to me in school. It’s called common knowledge and getting my teeth knocked in by society until I figured out how to be successful. Certainly universities have become havens for liberals to push their agenda. Once people start earning an income and paying taxes, they realize what’s really important which was not taught in school.
You mean college didn't teach you everything you need to know? Shucks! Or maybe you learned important skills that were less overt, like "how to learn."
I am a university professor and I love Madison, but I do want to note that Madison’s aim in this passage is “knowledge”, not “higher education”. I think everyone would agree that knowledge is critical; the disagreement is more about how well that knowledge is furnished by a university education. I still believe in it, but I don’t think the major criticisms are without any merit either.
This thread…..again….where we link hundreds of studies showing college degrees are almost guaranteed to make you better off than a high school degree but some poster knows someone who is an outlier and therefore concludes college is useless? What are we doing?
How does a college degree improve graduates’ employment and earnings potential? - APLU Key Takeaways College graduates are half as likely to be unemployed as their peers who only have a high school degree. Typical earnings for bachelor’s degree holders are $40,500 or 86 percent higher than those whose highest degree is a high school diploma. 87% of bachelor’s degree holders report financial wellbeing, 20 percentage points higher than groups with any other level of education College graduates on average make $1.2 million more over their lifetime. College is a good Investment The Labor Market for Recent College Graduates UPDATE: College pays off, according to new research
On a website that is associated with an institution of higher learning no less, unless UF is just a football team and to hell with the school part?
The thread topic is loss of public confidence in higher education, which is what I am addressing. That may or may not correlate with actual demand among high school graduates to actually go there. I suspect a bigger driver is the student debt issue. It’s one thing to be happy with your degree, it’s another when you have lingering debt for a decade or longer.
The protests are a nothing burger imo. College students protesting causes that were unpopular at the time is nothing new. The Vietnam War, civil rights, apartheid, the wars in the Middle East, socialism, etc., massive protest movements at universities is nothing new. And they're often not popular. The cost of getting a college education is a problem. That is an issue we need to address. But a big part of that starts with the taxpayers valuing and being willing to fund higher education. To be fair, I pulled that passage from a letter Madison wrote extolling the virtues of public education. The line before it reads: "The liberal appropriations made by the Legislature of Kentucky for a general system of Education cannot be too much applauded." The letter later says: "No error is more certain than the one proceeding from a hasty & superficial view of the subject: that the people at large have no interest in the establishment of Academies, Colleges, and Universities, where a few only, and those not of the poorer classes can obtain for their sons the advantages of superior education. It is thought to be unjust that all should be taxed for the benefit of a part, and that too the part least needing it. ... Learned Institutions ought to be favorite objects with every free people. They throw that light over the public mind which is the best security against crafty & dangerous encroachments on the public liberty." Just saying. But to address your point, I'll simply disagree with those who believe you don't gain knowledge from higher education. It is something that is easy to take for granted once you have graduated, but looking back, it is not hard to see the many ways in which I've benefitted from a well-rounded education. If anything, I wish I had taken more classes in certain areas (history, economics, and political science).
They may well be smarter. But they aren't as educated. There are many benefits that come with an education. People with the drive, intellect, and intellectual curiosity can compensate through reading and other forms of learning. But most folks don't do that. I am quite confident the skills you built during your many years of education have served you well in life. You may take them for granted, but it is incredibly easy for you to say that others should forsake the thing that has contributed to your success. And this is Exhibit A for the exact type of ignorant and selfish perspective I referenced earlier. It's about politics. If you have kids, feel free to tell them not to get college degrees. (But something tells me that if you do have kids, that won't be what you recommend to them.)
True, but there are limits. As I said previously there are a lot of drivers that have increased the cost of higher education, many of which don’t necessarily result in better education for most students.
Some of that is a function of universities trying to compensate for a loss of government funding. You need more and more "shiny toys" to attract students when they're the ones who pay your bills.
A well educated citizenry is a strength of a nation. We absolutely need welders, plumbers, and HVAC techs but they wont invent the next world changing technology. It will be medical researchers, engineers, and bio-engineers all of whom made tremendous personal sacrifices, forewent early gratification followed their curiosity and applied themselves to the pursuit of knowledge. To remain a strong nation we need to foster these pursuits.
