Netanyahu tells Israel ‘We are at war’ after Hamas launches an unprecedented attack, killing at leas

Does this guy along with his wife and father count as civilian casualties? So this ‘journalist’ is killed while housing 3 hostages with his wife and father who were also killed

 

Why is that interesting?

 

Yes. We were misunderstanding each other. I thought you were blaming/accusing Israel of wrongdoing for rescuing her citizens. Your post cleared it up.

 

I think that the answer is : we can't be sure, but most likely he (they all?) should be considered terrorist. But we can't really be sure, right?

That's not really the important issue or question, though. IMO these are :

1) Since any civilian assisting terrorists is then, by definition themselves a terrorist, it's not really productive to use this guy as an example (as was attempted earlier) that most of the civilian populace is thus sympathetic to terrorists simply because this dude (and certainly others) possibly/probably is. In fact, the proper term for such suggestion is gaslighting.

2) Is the Israeli strategy, which has clearly resulted in 10s of thousands of civilian casualties, even effective in the long run. It seems pretty clear that it's probably not.

 

Good to see the media in England is same as ours and similar to a lot of opinions here on gatorcountry. So the hostages were being held by civilians( so called human shields) in a civilian area( more so called human shields) and what does the anchor ask?? “Should the IDF have warned the civilians prior to the rescue” That’s some next level contortion of logic. For reference she asks the question about half way through.

Free Free hostages from so called human shields

 

She kinda favors the chick in your avatar and yes, I would if I could.

 

Probably not that many but WTF? How is the life of a Jew 50 times more valuable than the life of a Palestinian? I'm a Jew and I've never been more ashamed of Israel. There are no more meaningful military objectives left to achieve without killing thousands more innocents.

 

If the hostages had been released before the rescue, then nobody would’ve died. Why does Hamas keep holding the hostages, knowing that that leads to their own people dying?

 

Because Hamas doesn't care about human life. Jews are supposed to be better. There is no moral justification for the indiscriminate killing of so many Palestinian non-combatants. This operation was so Rumsfeld-esque.

 

Because they are terrorists. Only one side in this fight is capable of reason and it’s not Hamas.

 

ok. As an exercise... What if you discovered that 250 of the 300 ( civilians) were killed by Hamas firing rpgs and rifles at anything that moved after the hostages were rescued from the ‘journalists’ house. Ok. What if it was 200? Is there a sliding scale in your head ? Also are you saying this rescue operation was Rumsfeld esque? Or the entire conflict ?

 

So you think it's right to blame Israel for killing the people holding the hostages? That's some F'd up logic right there. Oh, and here is a pro tip: Civilians holding hostages aren't "innocents".

 

That's not true. Why take hostages then? Why negotiate? The point of taking hostages is to have grounds to negotiate something, which takes reason and forethought. All the actions of Hamas and the Israelis are those of people foregrounding self-preservation and revenge over any notions of universal humanity. If Israel is taking "reasonable" actions, then so is Hamas by that standard. It would take an abandonment of reason by Israel & Hamas to make peace here, something that would require real courage.

 

#falsemoralequilalency

Interesting that You honestly believe peace here would come from courage ? Resident Mensa needs to get out of the books and explore the world. There are infinitely more examples of peace through strength and the projection of power than was ever done from your definition of courage.

 

Hope this can be worked out but don’t expect Hamas/Iran to comply with any agreement they sign. They will continue their attacks on Israel.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/un-security-council-passes-gaza-cease-fire-resolution-drafted-by-us/ar-BB1nYJQW?ocid=BingNewsSerp

June 10 (UPI) -- The United Nations Security Council on Monday passed a resolution drafted by the United States calling for a cease-fire and the immediate release of all hostages.

+


“My message to governments throughout the region, to people throughout the region: If you want a cease-fire, press Hamas to say yes," Blinken told reporters. "If you want to alleviate the terrible suffering of Palestinians in Gaza, press Hamas to say yes.

"If you want to get all the hostages home, press Hamas to say yes. If you want to put present Palestinians and Israelis alike on the path to more durable peace and security, if you want to prevent this conflict from spreading, press Hamas to say yes."

After the vote, Hamas released a statement that it "welcomes what was included in and confirmed by the Security Council resolution regarding a permanent ceasefire in Gaza."

 

I have been around the world, the most peaceful places I've been to are countries that dont care about "projecting power." I live in a country that makes a habit of projecting power in the name of peace and stability, and its been involved in wars pretty much my entire life, has civilians armed to the teeth killing each other on purpose or accidentally, insane politics, a militaristic fetish, sells weapons to people killing other people around the world, has done black site torture, maintains illegal prisons in contradiction to its Constitution, has militarized police that violently suppress dissent (even unarmed college students) etc.

 

ANSWER:

https://www.cnn.com/2024/06/11/midd...srael-ceasefire-hostage-talks-intl/index.html

This is why, IMO, HAMMAS will never be (completely) liquidated. Sure, the IDF may kill thousands including the leadership,
but all this killing is just distributing more of the seeds of hate, and the power vacums will be filled, again, and again and again.
Sadly, and the more sane among Israel may want to consider this, housing people behind walls and barbed wire, in poverty, jobless
with no hope, fosters this kind of lunatic expression of hatred. They have nothing better to do than to blame "The Other", in this case Israel.

I hope I am wrong for Israel's sake but this religous martydom complex of the Palestinians and their fundamentalist, extremist supporters
never seems to abate. Apparantly war, death, misery, suffering and living like rats suits their world view. SMH. I am glad I was born on this
side of the Atlantic, thats for sure.

 

wg, thank you for the post, bttt:
"I've been to countries that dont care about "projecting power." I don't doubt this. However these "countries" typically have found a "niche" that allows them to "not need to" because they are protected or function in a system developed by the power players of one side or the other.

"I live in a country that makes a habit of projecting power in the name of peace and stability,.............." Yes we do wg, yes we do. However I will take the USA, with all it's warts, compared to hyper religous, doctrainaire ideological fanatics like Hamas in Palastine, or in any of the other Islamic nations.

You, of all people, must know that humans disgusting, non-stop, genetically encoded tribalism and evolved conditioning to violence and warfare is inherent in every known tribe in existence on this earth.

Western Civilization for all it's faults, is preferable to Totalatarian Regimes and certainly better than what GWB termed 'The Axis of Evil".

If I am certain of one thing, power will always be siezed in a vacumn and usually by the most violent and unscrupulous.

Right now, the World, politically is swinging to the right. Look at the recent elections in Europe. Look at the upcoming election in Nov. here in the USA.
Stunningly, this country very well may be a N Korea part deau by 2025 or 2026 if the right wing fanatics hoist Trump into power.

Sadly, as I grow older and continue my historical studies, I realize that COUNTLESS human civilizations and societies and forms of Gov't have risen,
sustained and then faded to be supplanted by another power base, usually by force of arms.

This cycle has been ongoing since the first humans started living
in the first collective societies, around the end of the Younger Dryas. (9,700 BC).


To quote "Tool" - (Vicarious): Pull your head out of your hippy haze
and give a listen
Shouldn't have to say it all again
The Universe is Hostile, so impersonal
Devour to survive, so it is, so it's always
been.

We all feed on tragedy
It's like blood to a Vampire
Vicariously, I live while the whole world dies,
Much better you, than I.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N26N7lQHNW8&ved=2ahUKEwiUkJub5NOGAxWMl4kEHRVRDnwQ78AJegQIFBAB&usg=AOvVaw18iyKnpRZ_TJmNyiDrIFmx

 

“The point of taking hostages is to have grounds to negotiate something, which takes reason and forethought.”

So now we give points to terrorists who kidnap, rape, and torture. This truly is a first.

 

I don’t know what the right answer is for Israel and Gaza. I have opposed the construction of settlements in predominantly Palestinian areas. At the same time, I think it was a mistake for Israel not to incorporate the captured areas - Gaza and the West Bank - as Israel proper. That’s why they’re now labeled “occupied,” even though Israel won them fair and square in the war.

The boundaries of many other countries have changed as a result of war and those areas that come under new control are not described as occupied because they are incorporated into the new country.

You are probably right about the seeds of hate. I have a weed that grows in my flowerbeds that develops seeds at the top. When I go to pull the weed out the seeds explode in every direction. It is impossible to remove the weed after seeds have developed without spreading the seats. But if I do nothing, the seeds will eventually spread anyway.

What was Israel to do? If they did absolutely nothing in response to October 7, Hamas would not have changed their evil ways. They would have just planned the next massacre. And they definitely would not have released the hostages.

Once Israel responded and Gazans died, would the seeds of hate depend on the number of Gazans dying? I don’t know that the number affects the amount of hate.

The Gazans do not seem inclined towards peace. There have been no demonstrations by Gazans for Hamas to stop their activities. At the same time, perhaps demonstrating against Hamas means death. But is that an excuse?