Netanyahu tells Israel ‘We are at war’ after Hamas launches an unprecedented attack, killing at leas

I will admit that civilians are most likely safer in the short term. But would disagree that the country as a whole is safer in the long term. I can respond in more depth later.

 

An interesting (and unfortunate) trend indeed. My reason for asking the question to @I_boy had to do with his suggestion that the protesters are supporting Hamas. I don't know enough about the specific protests, but wonder if they aren't more concerned with the citizens of Palestine (i.e. not Hamas).

 

Does Netanyahu have an exit plan yet? Or is he just (still) killing civilians in order to perpetuate future support for Hamas?

 

I do not think Netanyahu plans on stepping down so no, he does not have an exit plan.

 

Yeah. How difficult it is to please the West in their ivory towers as Israel has faced and fended off existential threats to their existence for as long as they’ve existed.

Every major critic of Israel has no viable alternative where they can live in peace. That’s the problem when there’s no reasonable negotiating partner on the other side of the table, as there hasn’t been for Palestine in any of our lifetimes.

To all of the morons in leadership throughout the West providing cover to Hamas, they should answer the following two questions:
1) Is Palestine a sovereign nation?
2) If not, then why is it a problem if Israel occupies it? If it is, then doesn’t Hamas (the governing body of Gaza) have a responsibility to protect its own people rather than willfully destroy them and use them as shields so they can play the victim? Don’t the people of Gaza bear some responsibility in electing Hamas? And doesn’t the government of Gaza bear full responsibility for the war crimes and savagery committed on October 7th?

Enough of this holding Israel to a higher standard.

You can’t on one hand hold Israel to a higher standard under the implication that they’re “the good guys” then on the other claim they’re genocidal monsters no different from their adversaries while ignoring every bit of context explaining the nastiness that is that war.

If the rule of war is that countries can invade you, kidnap your women and children, rape them, kill many, and hold many others as hostages… then hide behind their own civilians forcing a ceasefire without any reasonable endgame offer to end the violence or conflict (color me shocked that the terrorists aren’t reasonable)… then no Western country will ever win another war against the worst humanity has to offer. We have managed to provide the foolproof blueprint for the West to fall.

All they have to do is attack, then hide underneath hospitals and schools. Neither the severity of the provoking attack, nor the existential threat posed matter. All that matters is the “governing body of Gaza” is held accountable for neither the murders, rapes, or kidnappings that they coordinated on Israel nor the deaths of their own civilians that they choose to hide behind… while Israel is held accountable for both the murders, rapes, and kidnappings on their own people in addition to the dead civilians in the Gaza Strip.

I can’t say it enough, but it’s just the worst way of thinking. I like to give people the benefit of the doubt. A lot of this line of thought can be motivated by malice, antisemitism, etc. But I like to believe most of this way of thinking in the West (especially in academia) is motivated by this naive belief that people in Gaza think and reason the same way we do. They believe that for them to lash out in such a way implies some sort of monstrous provocation. Because who would otherwise act in such a way? And that is the scary question many on the privileged academic left are too frightened to even consider. The existence of people groomed from birth to be nothing but hateful and evil, preferring death and torture to their greatest enemy to life and prosperity of their own mothers and their own children.

The story of Israel/Palestine is not one of colonialism. It’s not one of forcing people out of their homes and competing for the same land. That’s tangential. It’s about one side of this conflict rejecting every offer to divide the land between the Israelis and the Palestinians over the last 70 years or so. That same side attacking Israel and threatening to wipe them off the face of the planet, then getting their asses kicked by the Israelis, then crying to the West about how mean Israel is.

 

I simply don’t have the time right now to offer a full rebuttal, but the one thing I really want to say is “yes, we can hold the good guys to a higher standard.”

further, the technicality that Palestinians don’t have a nation doesn’t mean they should be subjected to a humanitarian crisis.

but frankly I’m tired of this argument. Enjoy the bloodlust and the self-righteous sanctimony. Israel will get their pound of flesh and then we can discuss 20 years from now whether I was right about the long term downside of their current strategy.

I’ll leave you with this: after trillions spent and hundreds of thousands of lives ruined, did the US handle things right post 2001? I think we all know the answer…

 

What exactly is your “long-term strategy?”

Kill less Palestinians?

Thanks coach. Really helpful.

 

Our problem with 2001 is some combination of the following:
1) relying on bad intelligence
2) ghost hunting for weapons of mass destruction without knowing if they even existed.
3) lack of will for an endgame plan for the region.

1 is self explanatory, 2 is challenging but sensible depending on the level of threat and the likelihood of weapons of mass destruction, and 3 is the most clear-cut problem because our plan was apparently installing Westernized systems in the region rather than occupying them long-term.

Our goal should have been to eliminate the threat of weapons of mass destruction, then get out, or occupy parts of the region long-term.

The problem with comparing that to Israel is:
1) there is no bad intelligence problem, we all saw what happened, Hamas is bragging about it, and we know Hamas’s intentions. All of that is crystal clear.
2) Gaza borders Israel and has a long history of repeatedly attacking Israel. Future attacks are inevitable unless Israel controls Gaza.
3) Gaza is tiny and can be easily occupied militarily by Israel long-term without spreading Israel too thin. It’s simply a matter of will and determination, because obviously it’s not a pleasant situation.

 

1) I could’ve said you’re providing cover for Hamas because you hate Jews and align with modern Nazis. I chose to give you the benefit of the doubt. I would appreciate it if you granted me that same courtesy.
2) You act like this war is about vengeance/punishment rather than defense. Punishing Hamas is one priority, but not the primary priority. Punishing the civilians of Gaza is no priority at all. The primary priority is neutralizing Hamas so they don’t pose an imminent threat to Israel for the foreseeable future. If Hamas is militarily neutered I’m happy with Israel ending their attacks on Gaza.

If that’s “bloodlust,” I plead guilty.

 

https://www.timesofisrael.com/a-loo...aza-options-as-hamas-attempts-to-regroup/amp/

Does a good job summarizing the shit situation Israel finds itself in.

 

I completely appreciate the contempt for war and death. No rational person wants war, no sane person cheers innocent death.

But it seems we’ve come full circle. While you rightfully condemn war, you offer zero solutions to protect Israel and its citizens. Your condemnation offers nothing that stops the air-raid sirens from blasting across cities as rockets are launched weekly into its airspace. Your solution does nothing to stop the daily terror attacks. Your solution does nothing to ensure the future protection of Israelis.

I would love an end to this War — all war. Tell us how to get it done, in an environment where Hamas (and the others) have said loudly, clearly and without equivocation that their goal is the complete erasure of Israel.

I can’t think of a resolution short of the return of all remaining hostages (if any are left), and the compete and unconditional surrender of Hamas to Israel. Israel is getting close to achieving its goals. Why should they stop?

 

stop acting like the amount of bombing they’ve done was the only way. At this point people have suggested many things besides what Israel is doing. People keep pretending like the way Israel is doing it is best just because it’s Israel doing it. And lol at the unconditional surrender bit.

 

Those were some pretty insightful suggestions to win peace and security.

 

What a useless cheap shot post.
There have been SEVERAL suggestions made going back to the beginning of this thread - but I guess you're too lazy to even consider other options?

https://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/can-hamas-be-defeated - another good article - one that references what needs to be done after the fighting ends, and how the brutality of the current military action is actually making reconstruction and healing more difficult should Hamas actually be defeated.

Regarding alternative strategies to what they are doing - first, let's get straight what they are doing. 200 days of military attack on Gaza: A horrific death toll amid intl. failure to stop Israel’s genocide of Palestinians [EN/AR] - occupied Palestinian territory - key excerpt:
It is estimated that Israel has dropped more than 70,000 tons of explosives on the Gaza Strip in addition to its bulldozing operations, resulting in the destruction of all buildings at a distance of up to one kilometer in the east and north of the Strip in order to create a so-called "buffer zone". The extensive destruction also includes the Israeli army's newly-constructed road, south of Gaza City, connecting the east and west of the Gaza Strip---part of Israel's plan to divide Gaza City and the Strip's northern areas from its central and southern sections.

According to the preliminary, non-final toll, at least 131,200 housing units in the Gaza Strip have been completely destroyed, and another 281,000 units have been partially destroyed. In addition, thousands of kilometers of streets in the Strip have been demolished and turned into dirt roads full of rubble

Ok - what alternatives to that? Several, but I think the tactics used against ISIS would be what I would recommend (and I have previously in this thread, again, I guess you can't read because of your blood lust or you're just lazy).
Ultimately, the defeat of ISIS was made possible for several reasons, too long to list here, but it included a coalition of several countries working together. Yes, there were airstrikes, yes there was combat in cities, the battle in Mosul was especially bad for the city - but lessons were learned there that appear to be being ignored by the Israeli military.

Five Operational Lessons from the Battle for Mosul - long read but good about attacking urban areas.

One key part of that:

In LSCO in DUEs, the population usually provides more support to the defender. Historically, DUE defenders extract physical support from urban populations, while the task of rebuilding the city and restoring its society falls to the attacker. Unless the attacker has full surprise, defenders usually have time to integrate civilian manpower into an operational approach that demands social cohesion to “defend our homes.” Defenders often coerce population support through a combination of appeals to a common identity, incentives, and threats of violence. The defender also benefits from a siege’s effect on the city’s economy: with external commerce interrupted, the lack of competing economic activity suppresses the price of labor to, or even below, subsistence levels. Irregular militaries go to great lengths to maintain control of this captive labor market because they rely on civilian population support to provide combat forces with additional capabilities and operational reach. In contrast, professional militaries avoid incorporating population support into their offensive or defensive operational approach because they are usually sustained organically from national support and prefer to evacuate the population in order to use fires with reduced risk of civilian casualties.

Invest resources to mobilize and extract concrete support from the population. Joint doctrine stipulates that one of the fundamentals of urban operations is to “persuade municipal governments, groups, and population segments to cooperate with joint force operations.” LSCO in DUEs are usually of long-enough duration that commanders should invest resources and establish an expert JIIM team to convert potential population support into improved operational reach.

Further, Lesson 3: Attackers lose the initiative as soon as they enter the city. “Storm or siege” is the attacker’s last free choice. Yet Israel did that on October 27th. Again, many will argue that this was driven by the desire to free hostages, but perhaps more preparation, more negotiation, and less invasion would have resulted in the return of more hostages. Even had they released prisoners in an exchange they could have always blown them up later in an eventual attack on Gaza. And that eventual later attack could have happened after the building of a multinational coalition.

So - to sum up, because there is a TON to unpack here - yes, Israel had many options. They chose the most costly one.

 

Cheap shot? That’s really funny. I asked if you have solutions, you respond with finger-pointing platitudes.

Then, you provide examples that are, well, misplaced and wrong.

1. the first “example” is what to do once the fighting stops. We are not there yet.

2. the “horrific death toll” and the failure to stop Palestinian genocide. The accusation is laughably false. The “horrific” figures keep getting cut in half, once we stop listening to the terrorist body counters who seem to be better at paying actors to feign injury than accurately depict losses. Israel has taken more steps to protect civilian lives than any other invading army that I ever recall. And with that, all of the predictions of “genocide” have been proven wrong.

3. The Israeli strategy is working. Every day finds more hidden networks of tunnels, allowing Israel to shut down the logistical enabling means to strike at Israel. Four more dead hostages were uncovered yesterday. Israel will not stop until it gets its citizens back.

4. The civilian population has been evacuated, even 5hough people like you said it was impossible. Israel is methodically moving to ensure its goals while protecting wherever possible remaining civilians.

5. Israel is aiding the Palestinians. Imagine that. The invading army is providing food and aid and shelter to the displaced people, all while Hamas, the governing body, routinely endeavors to steal the aid and murder the people taking it.

6. None of your suggestions return the hostages. None of your suggestions result in the surrender of Gaza. And most importantly, none of your suggestions can ensure that Israelis can walk outside their homes and not worry about things such as making sure they’re in a foot race of a bomb shelters.

7. All of your suggestions ensure more war, because none solve anything. They may sound nice, without much forethought, but then ensure the continuation of a disgusting circle of war.

8. I despise War, and think that by now,the human race would have evolved to be able to live on this planet without these artificially drawn lines on maps. But we are not so evolved, and thus the borders needs to be respected, and defended.

 

“Many things.”

Im still waiting for one that doesn’t end with the history of October 7th repeating itself.

I don’t think it’s any one air strike that you have a problem with. You just think Israel has “generally” been too hard on Gaza and killed too many innocents which Hamas happens to be using as human shields.

That’s just whining without an alternative. We should all be sad about the innocent Palestinians lost (as well as Israelis). But there is no big picture viable alternative presented. None.

 

Not sure why I wasted my time. I find it amusing that you geniuses think the answer to prevent war is… brutal warfare lol. Short of killing literally all 2.3 mil brutal warfare without an exit strategy will long term ferment further unrest and war. We have seen this repeatedly throughout history. So unless they go full Roman or occupy long term all they are doing is buying time. Which hey - buying time is important. It’s helpful because they can work on their defenses while they keep the pressure on Hamas. But that doesn’t end war. It just gives them time to be prepared for the next hit.

Also it took Israel almost 6 months to effectively get the civilians aid and even now there are huge issues.

Finally, you asked me for other options. Israel had several before October 27th especially in regards to avoiding an immediate invasion - it’s not my fault if you choose to ignore that as a viable strategy.

 

Unfortunately, there is no solution to any of the major problems in the Middle East that does not involve a military defeat of Iran. Iran exports weapons and terrorism to any violent minority group in any country: Hamas, Hezbollah, Houthis, Hell's Angels, you name it. Terrorism is their main export. It is their contribution to civilization: death and destruction. It can only be cured by a military intervention. The Middle East will never have peace until Iran is cured of its leadership and policies. Destroying Iran's weapons and explosives factories would go a long way towards eliminating organized terrorism on earth.

An interesting article that claims that Hezbollah may have the Iranian equivalent of a Russian S-300 missile system and an Iranian version of an American missile. Doesn't mean that they know how to use them, of course.

The Israeli Air Force may have to think twice about taking on Hezbollah

 

Also it’s not that Israel won’t stop until they get their people back - they literally can’t stop now. They are stuck in Gaza now for the foreseeable future. See US circa 2001 and 2003 and several other times when we started declaring victory over the terrorists. But I’m sure it’ll work this time…

Also let’s not forget Israel has invaded and occupied before. Didn’t seem to help much…

 

To be fair, you're asking a message board poster to have answers that the government of Israel doesn't have themselves.

Killing 35,000+ civilians (mostly women and children), displacing nearly 2 million people by totally destroying the entire area, and probably causing a famine which could impact over 1 million people.......to eliminate a fraction as many terrorists as civilians killed........without any apparent plan for a post invasion peace plan or government in Gaza.......is certainly a solution to very very little.

Except creating more future terrorists.







* Now cue up 715 to explain how this message board boast is supporting or "giving cover" to terrorists.