KC Chiefs kicker complains about "emasculation of men," gay pride & says women should be homemakers

92gator · May 18, 2024

lacuna said: ↑

The thread's topic is directly connected to circumstance that brought about its existence. If Q had himself not thought that he would not have repeatedly asked the question for which I asked clarification.

Did he? And did you find and read the document? It is carefully worded. For several reasons reminiscent of "Carefully Taught" a song from the Rogers and Hammerstein musical, South Pacific.

This is a long post but contains pertinent information to consider.

This is a document the Vatican press released to the general public in December of 2023. For clarity and to facilitate any discussion, the controversial section is copied below. Find the entire declaration at the link.

Dichiarazione “Fiducia supplicans” sul senso pastorale delle benedizioni del Dicastero per la Dottrina della Fede

III. Blessings of Couples in Irregular Situations and of Couples of the Same Sex

31. Within the horizon outlined here appears the possibility of blessings for couples in irregular situations and for couples of the same sex, the form of which should not be fixed ritually by ecclesial authorities to avoid producing confusion with the blessing proper to the Sacrament of Marriage. In such cases, a blessing may be imparted that not only has an ascending value but also involves the invocation of a blessing that descends from God upon those who—recognizing themselves to be destitute and in need of his help—do not claim a legitimation of their own status, but who beg that all that is true, good, and humanly valid in their lives and their relationships be enriched, healed, and elevated by the presence of the Holy Spirit. These forms of blessing express a supplication that God may grant those aids that come from the impulses of his Spirit—what classical theology calls “actual grace”—so that human relationships may mature and grow in fidelity to the Gospel, that they may be freed from their imperfections and frailties, and that they may express themselves in the ever-increasing dimension of the divine love.

32. Indeed, the grace of God works in the lives of those who do not claim to be righteous but who acknowledge themselves humbly as sinners, like everyone else. This grace can orient everything according to the mysterious and unpredictable designs of God. Therefore, with its untiring wisdom and motherly care, the Church welcomes all who approach God with humble hearts, accompanying them with those spiritual aids that enable everyone to understand and realize God’s will fully in their existence.[22]

33. This is a blessing that, although not included in any liturgical rite,[23] unites intercessory prayer with the invocation of God’s help by those who humbly turn to him. God never turns away anyone who approaches him! Ultimately, a blessing offers people a means to increase their trust in God. The request for a blessing, thus, expresses and nurtures openness to the transcendence, mercy, and closeness to God in a thousand concrete circumstances of life, which is no small thing in the world in which we live. It is a seed of the Holy Spirit that must be nurtured, not hindered.

34. The Church’s liturgy itself invites us to adopt this trusting attitude, even in the midst of our sins, lack of merits, weaknesses, and confusions, as witnessed by this beautiful Collect from the Roman Missal: “Almighty ever-living God, who in the abundance of your kindness surpass the merits and the desires of those who entreat you, pour out your mercy upon us to pardon what conscience dreads and to give what prayer does not dare to ask” (Collect for the Twenty-Seventh Sunday of Ordinary Time). How often, through a pastor’s simple blessing, which does not claim to sanction or legitimize anything, can people experience the nearness of the Father, beyond all “merits” and “desires”?

35. Therefore, the pastoral sensibility of ordained ministers should also be formed to perform blessings spontaneously that are not found in the Book of Blessings.

36. In this sense, it is essential to grasp the Holy Father’s concern that these non-ritualized blessings never cease being simple gestures that provide an effective means of increasing trust in God on the part of the people who ask for them, careful that they should not become a liturgical or semi-liturgical act, similar to a sacrament. Indeed, such a ritualization would constitute a serious impoverishment because it would subject a gesture of great value in popular piety to excessive control, depriving ministers of freedom and spontaneity in their pastoral accompaniment of people’s lives.

37. In this regard, there come to mind the following words of the Holy Father, already quoted in part: “Decisions that may be part of pastoral prudence in certain circumstances should not necessarily become a norm. That is to say, it is not appropriate for a Diocese, a Bishops’ Conference, or any other ecclesial structure to constantly and officially establish procedures or rituals for all kinds of matters […]. Canon Law should not and cannot cover everything, nor should the Episcopal Conferences claim to do so with their various documents and protocols, since the life of the Church flows through many channels besides the normative ones.”[24] Thus Pope Francis recalled that “what is part of a practical discernment in particular circumstances cannot be elevated to the level of a rule” because this “would lead to an intolerable casuistry.”[25]

38. For this reason, one should neither provide for nor promote a ritual for the blessings of couples in an irregular situation. At the same time, one should not prevent or prohibit the Church’s closeness to people in every situation in which they might seek God’s help through a simple blessing. In a brief prayer preceding this spontaneous blessing, the ordained minister could ask that the individuals have peace, health, a spirit of patience, dialogue, and mutual assistance—but also God’s light and strength to be able to fulfill his will completely.

39. In any case, precisely to avoid any form of confusion or scandal, when the prayer of blessing is requested by a couple in an irregular situation, even though it is expressed outside the rites prescribed by the liturgical books, this blessing should never be imparted in concurrence with the ceremonies of a civil union, and not even in connection with them. Nor can it be performed with any clothing, gestures, or words that are proper to a wedding. The same applies when the blessing is requested by a same-sex couple.

39. In any case, precisely to avoid any form of confusion or scandal, when the prayer of blessing is requested by a couple in an irregular situation, even though it is expressed outside the rites prescribed by the liturgical books, this blessing should never be imparted in concurrence with the ceremonies of a civil union, and not even in connection with them. Nor can it be performed with any clothing, gestures, or words that are proper to a wedding. The same applies when the blessing is requested by a same-sex couple.

40. Such a blessing may instead find its place in other contexts, such as a visit to a shrine, a meeting with a priest, a prayer recited in a group, or during a pilgrimage. Indeed, through these blessings that are given not through the ritual forms proper to the liturgy but as an expression of the Church’s maternal heart—similar to those that emanate from the core of popular piety—there is no intention to legitimize anything, but rather to open one’s life to God, to ask for his help to live better, and also to invoke the Holy Spirit so that the values of the Gospel may be lived with greater faithfulness.

41. What has been said in this Declaration regarding the blessings of same-sex couples is sufficient to guide the prudent and fatherly discernment of ordained ministers in this regard. Thus, beyond the guidance provided above, no further responses should be expected about possible ways to regulate details or practicalities regarding blessings of this type.[26]

IV. The Church is the Sacrament of God’s Infinite Love

42. The Church continues to lift up those prayers and supplications that Christ himself—with loud cries and tears—offered in his earthly life (cf. Heb. 5:7), and which enjoy a special efficacy for this reason. In this way, “not only by charity, example, and works of penance, but also by prayer does the ecclesial community exercise a true maternal function in bringing souls to Christ.”[27]

43. The Church is thus the sacrament of God’s infinite love. Therefore, even when a person’s relationship with God is clouded by sin, he can always ask for a blessing, stretching out his hand to God, as Peter did in the storm when he cried out to Jesus, “Lord, save me!” (Mt. 14:30). Indeed, desiring and receiving a blessing can be the possible good in some situations. Pope Francis reminds us that “a small step, in the midst of great human limitations, can be more pleasing to God than a life which appears outwardly in order but moves through the day without confronting great difficulties.”[28] In this way, “what shines forth is the beauty of the saving love of God made manifest in Jesus Christ, who died and rose from the dead.”[29]

44. Any blessing will be an opportunity for a renewed proclamation of the kerygma, an invitation to draw ever closer to the love of Christ. As Pope Benedict XVI taught, “Like Mary, the Church is the mediator of God’s blessing for the world: she receives it in receiving Jesus and she transmits it in bearing Jesus. He is the mercy and the peace that the world, of itself, cannot give, and which it needs always, at least as much as bread.”[30]

45. Taking the above points into account and following the authoritative teaching of Pope Francis, this Dicastery finally wishes to recall that “the root of Christian meekness” is “the ability to feel blessed and the ability to bless [...]. This world needs blessings, and we can give blessings and receive blessings. The Father loves us, and the only thing that remains for us is the joy of blessing him, and the joy of thanking him, and of learning from him […] to bless.”[31] In this way, every brother and every sister will be able to feel that, in the Church, they are always pilgrims, always beggars, always loved, and, despite everything, always blessed.

Víctor Manuel Card. FERNÁNDEZ

Prefect

Mons. Armando MATTEO

Whoever penned this directive carefully and deliberately worked his way through a verbal minefield to avoid offensive missteps as if they were cowpies.
_____________________

More 'evidence' to consider in your deliberation:

Dicastery doubles down: Bishops shouldn't stop blessings for gay couples

VATICAN CITY (CNS) -- While bishops may take a cautious approach to the Vatican's guidance on blessing same-sex or other unmarried couples, they should not deny their priests the possibility of discerning and imparting blessings on people who ask for them, the Vatican doctrinal office said.

"Prudence and attention to the ecclesial context and to the local culture could allow for different methods of application, but not a total or definitive denial of this path that is proposed to priests," said a press release issued Jan. 4 by the Dicastery for the Doctrine of the Faith.

Many bishops' conferences in Western countries, [u]underscoring that the declaration did not change Catholic doctrine on marriage[/u], reacted positively to the document. But others, particularly in Africa, were vocal in their opposition. The Zambian bishops' conference issued a statement Dec. 20 stating that the Vatican document should "be taken as for further reflection and not for implementation in Zambia." In Malawi, the bishops' conference directed that "blessings of any kind for same-sex unions of any kind are not permitted in Malawi."
__________________

Assessing ‘Fiducia Supplicans’: The First 100 Days

VATICAN CITY — March 27 marks 100 days since the Vatican published Fiducia Supplicans, an instruction on blessings of persons in irregular unions. And while the controversy it stirred in the Church in the West has somewhat abated, opposition to the document and how it was implemented continues apace.

Cardinal Fridolin Ambongo Besungu of Kinshasa, Democratic Republic of the Congo, who drafted a pan-African bishops’ statement in January rejecting “blessings for same sex couples in the African Churches,” has not relented in his criticisms, going so far as to say in a March 17 interview that the continent saw the document as a form of “cultural colonization.”

Meanwhile, a lay-led filial appeal launched on Feb. 2 that called on cardinals and bishops to ask Pope Francis to “urgently withdraw” the document and issue a “fraternal correction,” has been signed by more than 100 priests and more than 500 lay professionals.

Among the signatories’ concerns was that such relationships would now appear “acceptable to God” and that the Catholic Church had “finally evolved, and now accepts homosexual unions and, more generally, extramarital unions.”

____

So your assigned task, Counselor - is examine and cross examine the document and determine with your legal eagle sense - Does Fiducia Supplicans bless homosexual 'unions'? Does it matter or make a whit of difference in your own praxis?

What Would Jesus Say? About the entire arc of this declaration from the reasons the RCC thought it necessary, to the current repercussions from Butker's address to the Benedictine Grads. Not a 'red herring', but pertinent to current trends, oppositional demands, and overall objections possibly associated with Butker's preference list or Q's 'red herring' plea.
Click to expand...

TLDR.

But I intend to, when I get the time. Thank you for posting it, and your thoughts.

As I said in the post you replied to, I'll reserve comment until I can read and process what the Pope actually wrote.

92gator · May 18, 2024

Spurffelbow833 said: ↑

What do you think would happen to a pope who made the same speech that Butker made?
Click to expand...

The Pope talking about "his wife" would surely be problematic.

Was that your point?

92gator · May 18, 2024

BLING said: ↑

Touché.

But I didn’t get up in front of a group of recent college grads and be like “hey ladies in the room, nice accomplishment, now flush that and instead go service some man as wife, as god intended”. Which is the gist of what he did. That is 100% sexist, extremely out of touch in the time and place of doing it at a college graduation. Even the Catholic nuns of that church vigorously rejected it as nonsense.

If you want to call that judgemental on my part, it’s easy judgement. I would probably have less of a problem with a woman on this topic - even at a college graduation (provided she sticks to her own perspective and isn’t demeaning those who would choose a career), when a man stands there to address “the ladies in the room” I imagine many couldn’t get past the sexist tinge to it, even if he believed it all to the upmost. Maybe if he wants to let his wife speak about motherhood and tone it back, it wouldn’t receive the condemnation. That is assuming the wife is allowed to speak (I say that half jokingly, but I honesty don’t know how extreme his particular strain of Catholicism is, obviously whatever he is is not in line with that particular Catholic institution).

Nor do I automatically judge women who work as “future old maids with too many housecats” as that writer did. She can speak to her own regrets, but I didn’t like her false dichotomy. I do judge those who would judge others in such ways, or who would celebrate sexism or discrimination. Guilty as charged your honor.
Click to expand...

I don't know about any cat article, but...

Are any of y'all capable of addressing Butker's speech without caricaturing it into a strawman?

lacuna · May 18, 2024

According to an article in the National Catholic Register the Pope did not write the Fiducia Supplicans. It was written by Argentine Cardinal Victor Manuel Fernandez, appointed by Francis as prefect to the Dicastery Doctrine of the Faith. The Dicastery wrote the document and Francis signed or approved it.

Take a look at what's posted at this link - Víctor Manuel Fernández - Wikipedia

phatGator · May 18, 2024

lacuna said: ↑

The thread's topic is directly connected to circumstance that brought about its existence. If Q had himself not thought that he would not have repeatedly asked the question for which I asked clarification.

Did he? And did you find and read the document? It is carefully worded. For several reasons reminiscent of "Carefully Taught" a song from the Rogers and Hammerstein musical, South Pacific.

This is a long post but contains pertinent information to consider.

This is a document the Vatican press released to the general public in December of 2023. For clarity and to facilitate any discussion, the controversial section is copied below. Find the entire declaration at the link.

Dichiarazione “Fiducia supplicans” sul senso pastorale delle benedizioni del Dicastero per la Dottrina della Fede

III. Blessings of Couples in Irregular Situations and of Couples of the Same Sex

31. Within the horizon outlined here appears the possibility of blessings for couples in irregular situations and for couples of the same sex, the form of which should not be fixed ritually by ecclesial authorities to avoid producing confusion with the blessing proper to the Sacrament of Marriage. In such cases, a blessing may be imparted that not only has an ascending value but also involves the invocation of a blessing that descends from God upon those who—recognizing themselves to be destitute and in need of his help—do not claim a legitimation of their own status, but who beg that all that is true, good, and humanly valid in their lives and their relationships be enriched, healed, and elevated by the presence of the Holy Spirit. These forms of blessing express a supplication that God may grant those aids that come from the impulses of his Spirit—what classical theology calls “actual grace”—so that human relationships may mature and grow in fidelity to the Gospel, that they may be freed from their imperfections and frailties, and that they may express themselves in the ever-increasing dimension of the divine love.

32. Indeed, the grace of God works in the lives of those who do not claim to be righteous but who acknowledge themselves humbly as sinners, like everyone else. This grace can orient everything according to the mysterious and unpredictable designs of God. Therefore, with its untiring wisdom and motherly care, the Church welcomes all who approach God with humble hearts, accompanying them with those spiritual aids that enable everyone to understand and realize God’s will fully in their existence.[22]

33. This is a blessing that, although not included in any liturgical rite,[23] unites intercessory prayer with the invocation of God’s help by those who humbly turn to him. God never turns away anyone who approaches him! Ultimately, a blessing offers people a means to increase their trust in God. The request for a blessing, thus, expresses and nurtures openness to the transcendence, mercy, and closeness to God in a thousand concrete circumstances of life, which is no small thing in the world in which we live. It is a seed of the Holy Spirit that must be nurtured, not hindered.

34. The Church’s liturgy itself invites us to adopt this trusting attitude, even in the midst of our sins, lack of merits, weaknesses, and confusions, as witnessed by this beautiful Collect from the Roman Missal: “Almighty ever-living God, who in the abundance of your kindness surpass the merits and the desires of those who entreat you, pour out your mercy upon us to pardon what conscience dreads and to give what prayer does not dare to ask” (Collect for the Twenty-Seventh Sunday of Ordinary Time). How often, through a pastor’s simple blessing, which does not claim to sanction or legitimize anything, can people experience the nearness of the Father, beyond all “merits” and “desires”?

35. Therefore, the pastoral sensibility of ordained ministers should also be formed to perform blessings spontaneously that are not found in the Book of Blessings.

36. In this sense, it is essential to grasp the Holy Father’s concern that these non-ritualized blessings never cease being simple gestures that provide an effective means of increasing trust in God on the part of the people who ask for them, careful that they should not become a liturgical or semi-liturgical act, similar to a sacrament. Indeed, such a ritualization would constitute a serious impoverishment because it would subject a gesture of great value in popular piety to excessive control, depriving ministers of freedom and spontaneity in their pastoral accompaniment of people’s lives.

37. In this regard, there come to mind the following words of the Holy Father, already quoted in part: “Decisions that may be part of pastoral prudence in certain circumstances should not necessarily become a norm. That is to say, it is not appropriate for a Diocese, a Bishops’ Conference, or any other ecclesial structure to constantly and officially establish procedures or rituals for all kinds of matters […]. Canon Law should not and cannot cover everything, nor should the Episcopal Conferences claim to do so with their various documents and protocols, since the life of the Church flows through many channels besides the normative ones.”[24] Thus Pope Francis recalled that “what is part of a practical discernment in particular circumstances cannot be elevated to the level of a rule” because this “would lead to an intolerable casuistry.”[25]

38. For this reason, one should neither provide for nor promote a ritual for the blessings of couples in an irregular situation. At the same time, one should not prevent or prohibit the Church’s closeness to people in every situation in which they might seek God’s help through a simple blessing. In a brief prayer preceding this spontaneous blessing, the ordained minister could ask that the individuals have peace, health, a spirit of patience, dialogue, and mutual assistance—but also God’s light and strength to be able to fulfill his will completely.

39. In any case, precisely to avoid any form of confusion or scandal, when the prayer of blessing is requested by a couple in an irregular situation, even though it is expressed outside the rites prescribed by the liturgical books, this blessing should never be imparted in concurrence with the ceremonies of a civil union, and not even in connection with them. Nor can it be performed with any clothing, gestures, or words that are proper to a wedding. The same applies when the blessing is requested by a same-sex couple.

39. In any case, precisely to avoid any form of confusion or scandal, when the prayer of blessing is requested by a couple in an irregular situation, even though it is expressed outside the rites prescribed by the liturgical books, this blessing should never be imparted in concurrence with the ceremonies of a civil union, and not even in connection with them. Nor can it be performed with any clothing, gestures, or words that are proper to a wedding. The same applies when the blessing is requested by a same-sex couple.

40. Such a blessing may instead find its place in other contexts, such as a visit to a shrine, a meeting with a priest, a prayer recited in a group, or during a pilgrimage. Indeed, through these blessings that are given not through the ritual forms proper to the liturgy but as an expression of the Church’s maternal heart—similar to those that emanate from the core of popular piety—there is no intention to legitimize anything, but rather to open one’s life to God, to ask for his help to live better, and also to invoke the Holy Spirit so that the values of the Gospel may be lived with greater faithfulness.

41. What has been said in this Declaration regarding the blessings of same-sex couples is sufficient to guide the prudent and fatherly discernment of ordained ministers in this regard. Thus, beyond the guidance provided above, no further responses should be expected about possible ways to regulate details or practicalities regarding blessings of this type.[26]

IV. The Church is the Sacrament of God’s Infinite Love

42. The Church continues to lift up those prayers and supplications that Christ himself—with loud cries and tears—offered in his earthly life (cf. Heb. 5:7), and which enjoy a special efficacy for this reason. In this way, “not only by charity, example, and works of penance, but also by prayer does the ecclesial community exercise a true maternal function in bringing souls to Christ.”[27]

43. The Church is thus the sacrament of God’s infinite love. Therefore, even when a person’s relationship with God is clouded by sin, he can always ask for a blessing, stretching out his hand to God, as Peter did in the storm when he cried out to Jesus, “Lord, save me!” (Mt. 14:30). Indeed, desiring and receiving a blessing can be the possible good in some situations. Pope Francis reminds us that “a small step, in the midst of great human limitations, can be more pleasing to God than a life which appears outwardly in order but moves through the day without confronting great difficulties.”[28] In this way, “what shines forth is the beauty of the saving love of God made manifest in Jesus Christ, who died and rose from the dead.”[29]

44. Any blessing will be an opportunity for a renewed proclamation of the kerygma, an invitation to draw ever closer to the love of Christ. As Pope Benedict XVI taught, “Like Mary, the Church is the mediator of God’s blessing for the world: she receives it in receiving Jesus and she transmits it in bearing Jesus. He is the mercy and the peace that the world, of itself, cannot give, and which it needs always, at least as much as bread.”[30]

45. Taking the above points into account and following the authoritative teaching of Pope Francis, this Dicastery finally wishes to recall that “the root of Christian meekness” is “the ability to feel blessed and the ability to bless [...]. This world needs blessings, and we can give blessings and receive blessings. The Father loves us, and the only thing that remains for us is the joy of blessing him, and the joy of thanking him, and of learning from him […] to bless.”[31] In this way, every brother and every sister will be able to feel that, in the Church, they are always pilgrims, always beggars, always loved, and, despite everything, always blessed.

Víctor Manuel Card. FERNÁNDEZ

Prefect

Mons. Armando MATTEO

Whoever penned this directive carefully and deliberately worked his way through a verbal minefield to avoid offensive missteps as if they were cowpies.
_____________________

More 'evidence' to consider in your deliberation:

Dicastery doubles down: Bishops shouldn't stop blessings for gay couples

VATICAN CITY (CNS) -- While bishops may take a cautious approach to the Vatican's guidance on blessing same-sex or other unmarried couples, they should not deny their priests the possibility of discerning and imparting blessings on people who ask for them, the Vatican doctrinal office said.

"Prudence and attention to the ecclesial context and to the local culture could allow for different methods of application, but not a total or definitive denial of this path that is proposed to priests," said a press release issued Jan. 4 by the Dicastery for the Doctrine of the Faith.

Many bishops' conferences in Western countries, [u]underscoring that the declaration did not change Catholic doctrine on marriage[/u], reacted positively to the document. But others, particularly in Africa, were vocal in their opposition. The Zambian bishops' conference issued a statement Dec. 20 stating that the Vatican document should "be taken as for further reflection and not for implementation in Zambia." In Malawi, the bishops' conference directed that "blessings of any kind for same-sex unions of any kind are not permitted in Malawi."
__________________

Assessing ‘Fiducia Supplicans’: The First 100 Days

VATICAN CITY — March 27 marks 100 days since the Vatican published Fiducia Supplicans, an instruction on blessings of persons in irregular unions. And while the controversy it stirred in the Church in the West has somewhat abated, opposition to the document and how it was implemented continues apace.

Cardinal Fridolin Ambongo Besungu of Kinshasa, Democratic Republic of the Congo, who drafted a pan-African bishops’ statement in January rejecting “blessings for same sex couples in the African Churches,” has not relented in his criticisms, going so far as to say in a March 17 interview that the continent saw the document as a form of “cultural colonization.”

Meanwhile, a lay-led filial appeal launched on Feb. 2 that called on cardinals and bishops to ask Pope Francis to “urgently withdraw” the document and issue a “fraternal correction,” has been signed by more than 100 priests and more than 500 lay professionals.

Among the signatories’ concerns was that such relationships would now appear “acceptable to God” and that the Catholic Church had “finally evolved, and now accepts homosexual unions and, more generally, extramarital unions.”

____

So your assigned task, Counselor - is examine and cross examine the document and determine with your legal eagle sense - Does Fiducia Supplicans bless homosexual 'unions'? Does it matter or make a whit of difference in your own praxis?

What Would Jesus Say? About the entire arc of this declaration from the reasons the RCC thought it necessary, to the current repercussions from Butker's address to the Benedictine Grads. Not a 'red herring', but pertinent to current trends, oppositional demands, and overall objections possibly associated with Butker's preference list or Q's 'red herring' plea.
Click to expand...

I thought there was a four paragraph quotation limit.

BLING · May 18, 2024

92gator said: ↑

I don't know about any cat article, but...

Are any of y'all capable of addressing Butker's speech without caricaturing it into a strawman?
Click to expand...

I did caricature it or paraphrase for brevity, but this was the gist of what was so offensive about his presentation. To highlight the offensive bits is not a strawman. Maybe you somehow disagree with this interpretation, but having seen the video and read the words - this is how it came off. I have the backing of the nuns on this one lol.

lacuna · May 18, 2024

^^^ There is, but exceptions can be made from time to time on publicly distributed documents if no copyright exists or restricts them. This^^^ falls into that category as would the Declaration of Independence or the US Constitution.

It seemed worthwhile to copy the entire portion for possible discussion.

mrhansduck · May 19, 2024

Contra said: ↑

In a similar way, we can open the Bible, read it, and know that the Pope is wrong.
Click to expand...

I assume you’re not Catholic - if you believe that every Christian has equal knowledge, qualifications, and authority to interpret the Bible for themselves?

citygator · May 19, 2024

92gator said: ↑

I don't know about any cat article, but...

Are any of y'all capable of addressing Butker's speech without caricaturing it into a strawman?
Click to expand...

His speech sucked. Abortion and LGBT bashing is such an inspirational grad topic. Funny a kicker lecturing priests on how to be a priest, how does that help graduates?

There are a million ways to say whether you go on to be a physicist like my mother or a homemaker like my wife…and his version of “diabolical lies” of a career just is a bad speech note for a graduation.

Fatherless homes? Being masculine? Great grad speech vibe. Covid conspiracy mentioned a few times. And finally “you live in a post-God world”.

It was a shitty speech worthy of mockery but there was enough flying in the conspiracy airspace for right wingers to run on here and what… say that was a good speech? It sucked.

BLING · May 19, 2024

citygator said: ↑

His speech sucked. Abortion and LGBT bashing is such an inspirational grad topic. Funny a kicker lecturing priests on how to be a priest, how does that help graduates?

There are a million ways to say whether you go on to be a physicist like my mother or a homemaker like my wife…and his version of “diabolical lies” of a career just is a bad speech note for a graduation.

Fatherless homes? Being masculine? Great grad speech vibe. Covid conspiracy mentioned a few times. And finally “you live in a post-God world”.

It was a shitty speech worthy of mockery but there was enough flying in the conspiracy airspace for right wingers to run on here and what… say that was a good speech? It sucked.
Click to expand...

+1.

Most of the “outrage” I’ve seen is hyper focused on that short mysogynistic bit addressed to “the ladies in the room”, but it’s not like the rest of the speech was motivational or uplifting, or even had a point. A mishmash of conspiracy, grievance, and online talking points.

Kind of funny the “shut up and play” folks are trying to defend this, presumably because he hits on a few of their taking points. To be clear, the speech would be crazy as a graduation speech if the Pope himself gave it. But for a 28 year old using a graduation speech basically for punching up at the Catholic hierarchy, it comes of as… umm… extra special.

citygator · May 19, 2024

It was the speech he wanted to give. Not a speech the grads needed to hear. Pride is the worst of sins.

antny1 · May 19, 2024

citygator said: ↑

It was the speech he wanted to give. Not a speech the grads needed to hear. Pride is the worst of sins.
Click to expand...

Probably the most succinct and well put criticisms I've heard.

lacuna · May 19, 2024

citygator said: ↑

It was the speech he wanted to give. Not a speech the grads needed to hear. Pride is the worst of sins.
Click to expand...

Nailed it!

duggers_dad · May 19, 2024

citygator said: ↑

It was the speech he wanted to give. Not a speech the grads needed to hear. Pride is the worst of sins.
Click to expand...

Bible thumper.

duggers_dad · May 19, 2024

Buckner single-handedly persuaded the left that they knew what a woman was.

It took over a year. But now everybody’s on the same page.

citygator · May 19, 2024

duggers_dad said: ↑

Buckner single-handedly persuaded the left that they knew what a woman was.

It took over a year. But now everybody’s on the same page.
Click to expand...

duggers_dad · May 19, 2024

I’m an abortion basher. Also, actual journalism …

'Harrison Butker Does Not Reflect Our Values,' Says League Of Woman Beaters

Contra · May 19, 2024

mrhansduck said: ↑

I assume you’re not Catholic - if you believe that every Christian has equal knowledge, qualifications, and authority to interpret the Bible for themselves?
Click to expand...

FWIW, it is not my intention to take this thread far down the path from the OP. I think there is a lot to still analyze as far as the OP is concerned (even 20 pages in), and I would push back very hard on the leftists or those who are leftist-minded or leftist sympathizers in condemning Harrison Butker for being prideful, patriarchalist, etc. You have to wonder what these people would say if they lived in the time of Jesus, and they saw him drive the money changers out of the temple and take the Pharisees and Sadducees to task for their moral and spiritual compromising. There are many merits to Butker's critiques of the left and the leftist infiltration of the Catholic Church that have occurred because cowards will not stand up and say anything about people who are trying to change the Catholic Church and the Catholic faith in ways that are right in their own eyes and right in the eyes of the culture. These people are driven by cultural winds, being tossed to and fro by them, having an allegiance to culture and politics first and subservience to Christ and religion that is secondary to that. Cultural compromise is their religion and their God. The problem Harrison Butker is striking at goes way beyond Catholicism, and it certainly applies to other denominations outside of Catholicism as well. The allure and seduction of culture and the approval of men to tempt us to not hold fast to the first principles of religion is a powerful powerful force that can be seen in every age and every era. Purity of religion is of paramount importance to any respectable religion, and anyone who flippantly does not care about the purity of their religion does not have a religion worth following or devoting oneself to. Cultural compromise is a terrible religion because you have no idea where the winds of culture will be in 100 years. You float and blow with the winds of culture, which will always be moving and changing generation to generation. So, you never have any hope that where you stand is actually on unshifting rock, but you are always standing on shifting sand. What we consider to be evil and reprehensible now is something culture could be celebrating in 1 or 2 generations. The 10 commandments were written on stone for a reason, and the reason was to demonstrate their immutability. What is carved on stone is permanent. Any true religion worth following should have a property of immutability to it. If it is not immutable it is not true. It is not timeless, and there is no guarantee that what you are clinging to has any properties of eternity in it.

Having said this, we can talk about knowledge, authority, and qualifications. Lets discuss by way of analogy. The US Constitution is a document that has authority. I think everyone could agree with this. We can even say that the SCOTUS has been given the authority to interpret the Constitution, but what do we do with Dobbs and Rowe, which directly contradict one another? How do we deal with a court that has contradicted itself? It directly brings into question the nature of the authority of the court. So, then we must have some kind of theory of the court's authority that accounts for the contradictions of the court throughout time. I think there are a few options here:

a) we could put our heads in the sand and simply deny the court has ever contradicted itself. We could sweep the problem under the rug and pretend it does not exist.

b) we could completely invent a new theory of legal truth that says legal truth evolves with time and it is simply the latest shifting of the sand and the blowing of the wind, and there is no such thing as timeless permanent immutable truth in the legal realm in a legal document. No legal document crafted anywhere on the planet can have the property that the 10 commandments have of being written in permanent immutable stone, but all legally binding government documents change meaning over time as living and breathing documents.

c) we could hold the view that courts, while being helpful and right at times do err, and that we must yield priority to the Constitution itself as being a timeless and immutable document, and courts who make decrees in contradiction with the Constitution and its original authorial intent have abused and improperly used their authority.

d) We could adopt a cafeteria line approach, and we could simply look at the history of the SCOTUS as a buffet line. We could pick the rulings of the court that are the apple of our eye, and we could say those are right because we simply choose to believe what is most self-serving to us.

Any single statement made by a Pope that contradicts another statement made by another Pope opens this can of worms where we have to start asking these types of questions. To my knowledge, every Catholic when pressed with statements different Popes have made retreats to one of those positions. Some will openly admit that not everything every Pope says is correct, and they would simply say they disagree with off the cuff statements made by Popes from time to time. The third position is the most tenable of the four options IMO, and I think there are some Catholics who hold that view regarding statements made by Popes. Take one more step beyond that, and you have the position I hold, which is the Berean mindset of Acts 17, where the Bereans authenticated the authority of the person teaching them in religious and spiritual matters by ensuring that what they were being taught aligned with the scriptures. We know the authority of those who claim to have authority to interpret the Bible based on if their teaching and conduct agrees or disagrees with the Bible. That is the way it was in the book of Acts in the early church.

VAg8r1 · May 19, 2024

Harrison Butker's new uniform.

gatorjo · May 19, 2024

Contra said: ↑

FWIW, it is not my intention to take this thread far down the path from the OP. I think there is a lot to still analyze as far as the OP is concerned (even 20 pages in), and I would push back very hard on the leftists or those who are leftist-minded or leftist sympathizers in condemning Harrison Butker for being prideful, patriarchalist, etc. You have to wonder what these people would say if they lived in the time of Jesus, and they saw him drive the money changers out of the temple and take the Pharisees and Sadducees to task for their moral and spiritual compromising. There are many merits to Butker's critiques of the left and the leftist infiltration of the Catholic Church that have occurred because cowards will not stand up and say anything about people who are trying to change the Catholic Church and the Catholic faith in ways that are right in their own eyes and right in the eyes of the culture. These people are driven by cultural winds, being tossed to and fro by them, having an allegiance to culture and politics first and subservience to Christ and religion that is secondary to that. Cultural compromise is their religion and their God. The problem Harrison Butker is striking at goes way beyond Catholicism, and it certainly applies to other denominations outside of Catholicism as well. The allure and seduction of culture and the approval of men to tempt us to not hold fast to the first principles of religion is a powerful powerful force that can be seen in every age and every era. Purity of religion is of paramount importance to any respectable religion, and anyone who flippantly does not care about the purity of their religion does not have a religion worth following or devoting oneself to. Cultural compromise is a terrible religion because you have no idea where the winds of culture will be in 100 years. You float and blow with the winds of culture, which will always be moving and changing generation to generation. So, you never have any hope that where you stand is actually on unshifting rock, but you are always standing on shifting sand. What we consider to be evil and reprehensible now is something culture could be celebrating in 1 or 2 generations. The 10 commandments were written on stone for a reason, and the reason was to demonstrate their immutability. What is carved on stone is permanent. Any true religion worth following should have a property of immutability to it. If it is not immutable it is not true. It is not timeless, and there is no guarantee that what you are clinging to has any properties of eternity in it.

Having said this, we can talk about knowledge, authority, and qualifications. Lets discuss by way of analogy. The US Constitution is a document that has authority. I think everyone could agree with this. We can even say that the SCOTUS has been given the authority to interpret the Constitution, but what do we do with Dobbs and Rowe, which directly contradict one another? How do we deal with a court that has contradicted itself? It directly brings into question the nature of the authority of the court. So, then we must have some kind of theory of the court's authority that accounts for the contradictions of the court throughout time. I think there are a few options here:

a) we could put our heads in the sand and simply deny the court has ever contradicted itself. We could sweep the problem under the rug and pretend it does not exist.

b) we could completely invent a new theory of legal truth that says legal truth evolves with time and it is simply the latest shifting of the sand and the blowing of the wind, and there is no such thing as timeless permanent immutable truth in the legal realm in a legal document. No legal document crafted anywhere on the planet can have the property that the 10 commandments have of being written in permanent immutable stone, but all legally binding government documents change meaning over time as living and breathing documents.

c) we could hold the view that courts, while being helpful and right at times do err, and that we must yield priority to the Constitution itself as being a timeless and immutable document, and courts who make decrees in contradiction with the Constitution and its original authorial intent have abused and improperly used their authority.

d) We could adopt a cafeteria line approach, and we could simply look at the history of the SCOTUS as a buffet line. We could pick the rulings of the court that are the apple of our eye, and we could say those are right because we simply choose to believe what is most self-serving to us.

Any single statement made by a Pope that contradicts another statement made by another Pope opens this can of worms where we have to start asking these types of questions. To my knowledge, every Catholic when pressed with statements different Popes have made retreats to one of those positions. Some will openly admit that not everything every Pope says is correct, and they would simply say they disagree with off the cuff statements made by Popes from time to time. The third position is the most tenuous of the four options IMO, and I think there are some Catholics who hold that view regarding statements made by Popes. Take one more step beyond that, and you have the position I hold, which is the Berean mindset of Acts 17, where the Bereans authenticated the authority of the person teaching them in religious and spiritual matters by ensuring that what they were being taught aligned with the scriptures. We know the authority of those who claim to have authority to interpret the Bible based on if their teaching and conduct agrees or disagrees with the Bible. That is the way it was in the book of Acts in the early church.
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But why do people who believe all of that vote for a "political party" that is jut a defense and misinformation apparatus for an adulterous, criminal, racist rapist?

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