Netanyahu tells Israel ‘We are at war’ after Hamas launches an unprecedented attack, killing at leas

Again 80-90% of all deaths in urban combat are Civilian. For a multitude of reasons. By every measurable stat the IDF has way outperformed and civilian deaths are at a substantially lower rate. Have your opinion. That’s what the boards are for. I’ll disagree in a Civil manner

 

Ah. That sounds like a mistake then. And mistakes happen in war, sometimes terrible ones. In fact, I'm not aware of a war where noncombatants were not killed by mistake. That's one of the things that makes war terrible, and why we should all avoid it if we can. Perhaps, on October 7th -- when Hamas launched its campaign of pillage, rape, and murder -- Hamas told itself. "Don't worry, boys. Israel won't make any mistakes. All of their munitions will kill only us." If so, that was pretty foolish. If not, perhaps we should be asking ourselves what Hamas' strategy was, and maybe not assisting its strategy.

 

It looked that way to me, too. I suspect that Israel had bad intelligence. And I’m not using that as an excuse. And it means nothing to the innocents who lost their life, trying todo some good. We is tragic, awful, and inhumane. I wishIsrael (or nay other country) was not in a War. But it is, and tragedy of epic proportions occur, and it is never excusable or acceptable.

 

Yes, it likely was a mistake. However, it is not true that they were collateral damage. They were targeted.

I'd suggest that Hamas' goal was to get a massive Israeli campaign against Gaza with large scale civilian deaths. This advances a number of Hamas' strategies: namely, it allows them to raise extensive money that will go to the leadership and isolates Israel from the world, which, largely doesn't like large scale civilian death, especially without a clear and achievable goal. In addition, they got to achieve a PR and operational win against Israel on 10/7 for people who align ideologically with Hamas and a source of future recruits via the mass civilian deaths in Gaza (family members, especially young ones, looking for revenge).

Not sure Israel could avoid Hamas' goals after 10/7. But let's not pretend that all of this (including the planned Rafah offensive) doesn't advance Hamas' goals. Think of it like this: would Hamas' leadership overseas prefer to lead a terrorist organization against an unpopular occupier or have to try to provide basic needs within Gaza?

 

We are going to have to disagree on semantics. The aid workers were not targeted; Israel had no military advantage in killing aid workers, the opposite in fact. They were collateral, that is to say not an intended effect of the attack. If you would argue otherwise, I would want to know exactly what the effect Israel was hoping to achieve by deliberately killing these aid workers.

It does indeed if Israel again stops short of forcing Hamas to surrender. Since we have never seen what that would look like for peace in the region -- and we have seen what happens when Israel shows forbearance and Hamas claims victory -- why don't we go ahead and let this play out until surrender this time.

 

"They" are not an effect. "They" are people. Those people were targeted for death. Their death was not accidental in the sense that the goal of the operation was their death. It was not incidental. A few people in the Israeli military decided that they were going to be killed. Why they did so was the mistake.

How does Israel force Hamas to surrender? Their leadership is in Qatar. Let's say Israel occupies all of Gaza. Does Hamas surrender then?

 

I think Israel will settle for the real Hamas leaders, fighting in Gaza, and accept their surrender. A couple figureheads living it up in the safety and comfort of Qatar will be of little consequence once they have no one to send orders to. But who knows? That might not work either. It has at least, for the moment, the virtue of having not been tried.

 

you have some next level thinking to present some of your arguments about use of force. Were you ever in military ? How many fights have you been in, in your entire life ? Have you ever had an intruder in your home? Have you ever been the victim of a violent encounter. Basic mugging etc? Just trying to get a picture of your experience with actual violence. The real kind, not the movie kind


You Remind me of this guy. The second one person lays a hand he screams USA. USA when he thinks it will Help him

 

Kind of making a problem for yourself if on the one hand you call Hamas stateless terrorists, but on the other say they need to act like a legitimate state and negotiate a surrender. Say what you will about our "War on Terror" but even the biggest idiots in our government werent saying "this ends when Al-Qaeda formally surrenders."

 

You don't think that Israel has tried to occupy territory to capture mid-level leadership before? They will capture and kill some. Some will go to ground. They will be replaced with new mid-level leadership. Hamas doesn't have a static membership.

 

How many conflicts have you resolved? Have you ever talked your way out of an ass kicking? Have you ever negotiated a surrender to a stateless organization? The real kind, not the game kind. We need to get a picture of your experience with peace making before we can take you seriously on how to end a war.

 

Of course, they have. Now when was the last time they fully occupied and imposed their will on the Gaza Strip?

 

Wow. That sure is something. I'll go get into a bar fight so that I can understand one of the most complicated geo-political event in recent history. Afterall, the only way to really understand a complex mixture of generational resentment and religious hatred and how it will play out over decades is to hit on some drunk guy's girlfriend until you start punching each other. Thanks for the advice.

But since you are very concerned with personal experience, how many members of Hamas do you know?

 

well I can tell you from my experience that people that speak of peace making as a verb have no experience with violence and ‘negotiating’ with violent people. Maybe one day we can grab beers and exchange stories.

 

I dont get it, are you saying you know how violent people think because you are one? Not sure I want to have a beer with a violent psycho.

 

ha. Now you’re talking like a DoS guy that helicopters in to tell the DoD guy how To engage an enemy but to only do it once the DoS guy is back in the rear watching on the surveillance feed.

 

Good movie quote. You cannot begin to understand what it’s truly like to be an orphan by reading Oliver Twist. You’re an educated guy, you can think it through. But sure. Keep throwing out advice on dealing with animals. I’ll call you Johnny Somali Jr.

“ USA. I’m USA”

 

Oh, I think that I now see your point. You want people to have experience with strategy-less violence to try to better understand why you support strategy-less violence. The problem? Violence in a war is supposed to have a strategy, not be a bar fight. There is a reason that the military in the US is led by civilian leadership.

But you can go ahead and continue to pretend that the belligerent drunk at the end of the bar is the important one to listen to about war.

 

Again, I dont really understand what you are arguing. No one can understand how terrorists think without hijacking a plane or bombing a subway? To really know violence you have to have done it to someone else first? To deal with 'animals' become an animal? What kind of psychotic shit is that?