Netanyahu tells Israel ‘We are at war’ after Hamas launches an unprecedented attack, killing at leas

Are really that stupid?

 

I think you are trying to call me stupid by making the rookie mistake of butchering the English language while doing so. Your last nonsense sentence doesn't even have a subject which, typically, is a required part of a sentence. But yea. I must be stupid. Anyhow, are you suggesting there is no humanitarian aid needed because Hamas is a bad actor?

 

If they cleared land in northern Gaza, the same crowd complaining now would have been complaining about that instead.

Instead of insisting that attacking Rafah is genocide, you just would have been hearing how clearing the land was “proof” that Israel is trying to steal the land and insistence that qualifies as ethnic cleansing.

Israel is in a no-win situation because the “authorities” on the other side literally are Hamas, make no effort to limit civilian casualties (and arguably actually try to maximize them), and are guided primarily by what maximizes propaganda value.

 

It is a bit odd to argue that the Israelis should do what Hamas wants. If they want civilian deaths, why give it to them? This doesn't seem like a win-win for both sides.

I don't see how somebody could argue that clearing rubble for refugee camps is ethnic cleansing. Causing the rubble in the first place is where the argument will be (see, for example, the Bellingcat report that suggests that some of the destruction was not motivated by military objective but slipped into religious and revenge motivations at the unit level). As long as they don't start setting up Israeli settlements, the argument that setting up refugee camps is ethnic cleansing wouldn't really go too far in regards to cleaning up the rubble.

The problem with the refugee camps is that it would be nearly impossible to stop it from being infiltrated by Hamas. But they need to figure out something to do with the civilians that isn't mass death.

 

Of course they do. Hamas is a horrific terrorist organization that has redirected energy that could be used to help Palestinian people to enrich their leadership at the cost of the civilians for decades. But that doesn't mean that Israel should just go kill all those civilians either. The problem at this stage is that I can't even say what Israel's end goal is. They can't destroy an idea, even an awful one like Hamas' ideology. So what is their achievable end goal (assuming that it isn't wiping out the civilian population of Gaza) and how does killing tons of civilians in Rafah help them achieve that goal?

 

so at least we agree that Hamas entire strategy since the beginning was to target and kill as many civilians as possible in their initial raid and then retreat and hide themselves and all their weapons within their own civilian areas such as apartments, schools, mosques and hospitals and wait for their proxies around the world to scream for civilians. And it worked. Now they no longer have to negotiate. And the isreali citizens have learned that Hamas can and will come across the border and execute 1200 unarmed civilians in horrific ways and their ally the US will ghost them. BTW. Israel has about 10,000,000 in total population so 1200 Israelis killed would be comparable to 40,000 American civilians.

 

I noticed a distinct lack of answering the question there. It really shouldn't be a trick question. What is the goal of Israel that is advanced by killing a bunch of civilians in Rafah?

 

Really great question,IMO. However, in that light, in the middle of war, what is the pursuing army supposed to do when the enemy combatants retreat to civilian centers? How is the War supposed to be prosecuted? And ultimately come to a conclusion?

We all get to form easy opinions on a faceless message board. But if you are the head of state of the pursuing Army, who verily believes that your State’s vital security, and the security and safety of your people, rests with a total win against your enemy, what choice do you make,when without prosecuting the War, there can be no conclusion due to your enemy strategically choosing to blend with civilian populations?

 

Every day post October 7 was always destined to be another PR win for them. They have won the PR war for decades, all at the expense of truth and peace.

 

I'm not even sure that we have a sense of what a "total win" is. One of the problems Israel has in denying that the end goal is genocide is that they can't say what the end goal is, just that it involves mass civilian death. It gives the impression that they have a final goal in mind but admitting it in public would look so bad that they can't, or, alternatively, they have no final goal and are just going to kill civilians indefinitely.

 

Or… how about return the hostages? Hamas has established a precedent that it’s ok to illegally breach a border, murder, rape and torture citizens, and kidnap others, then extort demands for the return of the citizens. And people are cool with that. Remember how angry many of us were when we traded a worldwide killer for a basketball player with Russia. Multiple that one event by the hundreds of Israeli and Americans taken hostage in return for the thousands of prisoners Hamas has been demanded Israel ”pay” in ransom.

Where is the outrage to this?!

 

How does the math work out for the Palestinian civilian casualties?

 

Slightly off topic, but on the bullshit ethnic cleansing claim, Arabs represent over 21% of Israel. The tiny sliver of land that was granted to the Jews, so that the Jews could have a homeland, has 21% of its population consistent of Arab Israelis, who have every right that every Jewish citizen has in that country. The propaganda that is so willingly absorbed by people is crazy.

 

The goal is and has always been crystal clear — win the return of all hostages, and end the Hamas regime. The war ends when the hostages are returned and Hamas —who has attacked Israel for the last time — surrenders.

That was the defined goal at inception and that goal has not wavered.

And with that goal, and Israel’s goal of prosecuting this war to conclusion, how would you suggest that they prosecute their War goal when their enemy hides within civilians?

 

I can answer the question, because it is not a mystery. Israel wants to prosecute the War to conclusion. The enemy hides within civilians. If you have the remedy for Israel to win this War, where victory requires the total and unconstitutional surrender of Hamas, where civilian lives are spared, let the world know!!

 

I don't think that you can reasonably make the claim that Arab-Israelis receive all the rights of Jewish residents. Israel denies most of their citizenship requests (many don't apply, but this is true even for the ones that do) and Arab-Israelis are essentially segregated in the country (different towns, education systems, services, etc.).

 

What is "the conclusion?" That is a bit of a tautology.

 

The last few pages of discussion are good, and why I hate absolutists on this issue. A whole lot of things can be true at once, both good and bad for both sides.

But for me, Bill Maher summed it up best, to paraphrase:
Hamas would wipe out Israel but can’t.
Israel could wipe out Gaza but doesn’t.

for all that Israel and especially Bibi have done wrong over the years (and it’s a long list that limits sympathy from me for their current crisis however tragic), one side is a liberal democracy and one side’s entire legitimacy is based on the idea of wiping out Israel.
People are free to get mad about civilian deaths, but when an “army” hides among the people like cowards, deaths are going to be elevated, and in fact probably seen as helping their cause.

Arafat is the coward here, he had a deal on the table and turned it down out of fear he’d be assassinated for taking it. Was likely more than they’ll be offered again in my lifetime.

 

Can you offer me a cite on Israeli law for this? I’m certainly no expert, but I know for a fact that Arabs live amongst Jews, shop with Jews, educate their kids with Jews, have jobs alongside Jews, serve in the Army with Jews, serve in every branch of government alongside Jews, and vote for representatives alongside Jews.

Again, I’m no expert on Israeli law, but I have many friends and clients who live or lived there, and any more who have family there,and that is what is told to me.